Closed loop design?

[legion]

I would like to put a closed loop on my tank(125L) before I set it up. Are there any restrictions on where I can drill the holes? All the holes will be on the back wall. Depth was my main worry. I run a bare bottom and would likesome of the outlets to spray the bottom glass(for movement). Will a bulkhead leek if place at the bottom under pressure? It will have a couple hundred Lbs. of live rock to displace some of the water.

 

[legion]

I was also wondering about bulkhead size to achieve good flow through either 4 or 6 outlets? Any ideas on pump size would be great too. I have a quiet one that will push 900 gph or so.

 

[psusocr1]

im runnign a CL on my 125 that is 1200 GPH and i only use two outlets so ic an get some serious velocity out of them.. i dont think 900GPH would be nearly enough to make a diffewrence with 4 or 6 outlets. this is just my opiniin but if i went with 4 outlets i would use a 1500 gph+ pump and/or 6 outlets i would look at 2000 gph range..
you wont loose any head pressure since the downward gravitational force will offset the head , but you will loose alot of flow due to friction with 4 or 6 outlets..
OR you can use a 1200-1500 GPH pump with pnductors or eductors to get your velocity moving fast, but they are pricey when you need that many so you might as well go with the igger pump IMO

 

[crzyfshygy]

HATE TO HIJACK....BUT JUST A QUESTION. How many drains do you thing would be needed for a 1500 gph and is the size of the bulk head make a difference??

 

[psusocr1]

yes a one inch drain will give you 400 GPH .. a 1 1/4 i beleive gives you 600 gph etc. etc
i THINK they are correct
so you would just have to run the drains accordingly to the pump size

 

[legion]

If I where to put 6 in, what size outlet are you suggesting or guessing(whatever :joy: ) The larger pump needed is fine, I just got the quiet one for free(new in box). Four will be at the bottom and 2 at the top, along with the returns from the sump at the top. I was thinking one inch to try to increase pressure. Ever had a problem with a leaky bulkhead?

 

[psusocr1]

no problems with a leaky bulhead, especially becaus ei use good rubber gaskets..rememeber the bigger outlet size you go the less veloctiy your going tog et,, so if you went 3/4" it would be flying out of there giving you great flow ,,, wheras if you go 1 1/4 as you can imagine it will just be "flowing" out of the outlet not giving you the greateest movement at all
IMO and obvuiously this is just my opinion buit if you go with one inch and youll be using 6 lines, also with 4 at the bottom youll have alot of friction buildup, with this i would not use any less than 2000GPH and evan so you strill might need some penductors or eductors to increase velocity..
once again this is only my opinion, but when it comes to flow i like it to really blow stuff around!

 

[stimpy4242]

I would like to add that I have a 5400gph pump hooked to my CL for my 125...and it is just about putting out what it needs to. Don't forget all the head loss from 90s and bends and multiple outlets...those build head FAST!!! I had a dart hooked up first and nothing came out...basically! sequence pumps are great, i wish i could be using the silent dart...

 

[psusocr1]

how did you have a 5400 gph pump that wasnt doing anything?
that doesnt sound right.. remember you get no head loss from a cloose loop, the only thing you have is friction and loss that way, but it shouldnt be enough that you would evan notice unless you wrapped piping around the tank 2 or 3 times

 

[stimpy4242]

Wow, you really need to look at some plumbing...the term head loss is calculated from both vertical height, but also fittings and horizontal runs. Also my intake for the cl could be lower than the outlets which would result in head loss...regardless, if you view my CL in this post:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/243583/my-new-tank-125g-rr
You will see that my CL is quite involved and has plenty of 90 elbows and varying pipe size, which calculates a lot of head loss! Keep that in mind when you make your system...there is a rudimentary head loss calculator on the other reef site...you can check that out for reference.

 

[psusocr1]

es i remember this systemn, nicely done..
what im saying though is your still not getting "head loss" you dont get "head loss" from a cloose loop design system.. the gravitational pressure draining down intot he pump offsets the pressure needed to pump it back up... your only getting "friction loss" from all the outlets and 90's that you have along with the fact that you have two squares of plumbing..
hope you see what im saying...
also i can imagine now why you lost soo much.. as i said i odnt think its from the friction loss as much as it is from all of the outlets your pumping out of and the size at which the water is coming out..

 

[acrylic51]

Psusocr1 is correct.....in a CL there is NO head!!!!!!!!!

 

[stimpy4242]

i agree with you, you are right the bends give it friction loss, but friction loss adds up to a number that can be converted to head loss as in the calculator I gave you so you could compare it with the charts that come with most pumps. Let me ask you this, do you think that if I changed the loc line outlets to 3/4 in that would give a huge improvement? They currently are 1/2" Not much I can do now about the spa flex leading to the bulkheads, they are 1"...what do you think?

 

[acrylic51]

Yes.....Your choking the daylights with 1/2"........

 

[stimpy4242]

will 3/4" make a huge difference...because you know my next question given my other posts is going to be whether i can downsize back to my dart if I do this, or will i still experience not enough given the other fittings? what should I do??? let me ask this, if i do move to 3/4" i will have to redo the entire square..., if i do that, will making it in 1 1/2" pvc make any difference if it has to go through 1" spa flex and a 1" bulkhead to get there???

 

[psusocr1]

o.k listen if you really want serious water movement and to blow this thign away IMO and what i would have already done is got o 3/4" and buy penductors or eductors,, same thing.. they increase your water volume out of your outlets by 5x which measns you can use a MUCH smaller pump, and beleive me these things KICK BUTT!!! they are one of the best kept secrets out there for crazy water movement!
also it sound sliek your using alot of differnt sizes for pipe.. what outlet size is the pump? whatever that is i would use that size piping for the whole system! if for some reason you need ot go bigger or smaller in one are or two areas( dont know why you would have to but making a wavemaker or something) then go ahead and do it but then change it right back to whateevr size your outlet is on the pump..
this will give you very minimum loss..
also why did you go with the square im wondering? and also why 4 outlets per each square? the square to me is killing alot of water pressure you want..why not just come up from the bottom with a squidd and two outlets per side? for a total of 4 instead of 8? also you wouldnt need to make that squre just straight plumb them.. id ont know if you get what im saying but i think your wasting ALOT of pump on certain things and you could have a much better water movement system than now with some simple adjustments and spend ALOT less on electric every month

 

[acrylic51]

I looked at your thread........What size plumbing are you running from the dart up to your bulkheads, and then what size plumbing? Don't reduce it down till the very end......I have the Dart pushing my OM8Way and it's not enough and I feed the OM8Way with 2" and it comes out of the OM8Way with 1" and it chokes it.......
3/4" you'll see an increase.

 

[stimpy4242]

Well first, I have already sent the dart back did that a while ago. The plumbing coming from the dart to a four way manifold is 1.5 because that is the outlet size. from that manifold are four 1" spa flex going to the 1" bulkheads, the two in the rear just open directly into the tank and the other two go into the squares that are 1" pvc dumping into the .5" loc line. I can't make the bends with 1.5" spa flex so i have to use the 1" after it splits.

 

[acrylic51]

Ok.......You are choking it going with .50 loc line, and your theory of the manifold sizing is correct till you get to your in tank part where you just have 2 dumping into the tank and then 2 going into .50. Your pushing a large majority of your water through the 2 wide open ports....Water is going to take it's least resisitive path and that would be the wide open ports and flow wouldn't be evenly distributed IMO.......I would make the ports equal in the tank and use .75 instead of 2 wide open and 2 at .75......you'll still see uneven flow set like this.........
Honestly I like the option Psusocr1 offered as far as using the penductors.....They will increase your flow 3-4 times what the pump is pushing.........for ever 1 gallon the pump pushes with the use of these they will increase it 3-4 times that.......They are smaller than the educators, and IMO the loc line is to restrictive......

 

[stimpy4242]

Well I prefer the loc line to be able to adjust the direction of the flow...here is what I plan on doing...I am goign to redo the manifold and i am going to place everything to 1.5". I will leave the squares as 1" and then go to 3/4 loc line. I think this will greatly improve the flow. I do have ball valves on the rear lines to gate them back for the reason you mentioned above. You do agree that there is no point in making the squares out of 1.5" if the bulkhead is 1" right? Also are to 45 degree elbows less restrictive than 1 90 degree elbow?