Closed loop vs. powerheads - Planning process

[maelv]

Well doing some research and reading on here and a couple of other forums.
I am thinking at getting a closed loop in my new tank, using a reeflo pump (possibly the hammerhead) and an OM 4-way, and for the return I will have 2 sea swirls on a mag 18...
It is going to be a 5" DSB. I was thinking of drilling 4 holes about 3 holes up from the bottom and running PVC along the floor of the tank and using lockline tubing. then bury the pvc so it wouldn't show. And a 5th hole somewhere above the 5" sand bed. Questions on this:
1. Could I use one drain for the CL, or do I need 2 drains?
2. Could I possibly drill these CL drains in the corner overflows? So they are not visible
Second part of this is.....anyone have those ridiculously expensive Ecotech Vortec pumps? Some on -- were saying they prefer a couple of those over the CL system....any ideas or thoughts on these? $700+ on two small pumps (although they can push up to 3000 gph each) is steep!!!!!!!!!! But the savings on electricity would pay for them eventually.....
I think that the arguement was that the CL would not provide a random water flow. But I am thinking the way I am planning my set up it would be a fairly random flow (with alternating surges in the lower tier from the CL, and each sea swirl having a y splitter and two locklines on each one for surface agitation and the other for shooting water in the mid section of the tank). I will try to get some type of drawing on here somehow of what my design for the CL and return will be and see if I get a better opinion of my thoughts from the pros. But until then, please help me out with my other inquiries....Thanks.
ismael

 

[joncat24]

the vortechs are awesome but they are Way too expensive. If it were me instead of drilling alot of holes I would get a couple of the tunze 6055's and put them on a wavemaker/ controller. It would be alot easier and they are small units with alot of flow. Like you said they would pay for themserlves in energy savings alone.
Closed loops are great, but they are alot of work and alot of money to do it right, when you could get the tunze and be done with it. Also the nanostreams are small and aesthetically pleasing.

 

[maelv]

Jon, do these have to be run on a Tunze controller? I am looking and the prices I am seeing they are more than the closed loop I am thinking.......and I can't seem to find the 6055...i guess I don't know what I am looking for....I am seeing some the 6101 with controllers...(1) 6101 pump and 7091 single controller for $391, then (2) 6101 with 7095 multi controller for $884
I think I can get the OM 4 way and a Reeflo Hammerhead for about that....and this is just for 2 pumps (tunze)... is this going to be good enough? How many pumps would i need for my new tank?
it is a 6 foot 220 by the way....and thanks for the help

 

[thangbom]

well you basically got it all down... cl is a lot of work and are in most cases power hungry due the the big pump running them...they also can add some heat...again due the the large pump... there random flow can be fix with a scwd or a om but they reduce your flow a bit making them even more ineffcient... on the other hand... they can he hidden from view with good placement..
as for "stream" type pumps... they have to hang in the tank ( if not the whole PH then at least part of it ) and are not as pleasing to the eye but they ar'nt that bad... there ppower consumption is very low ... ( i think the vortec can pump out anywhere from 300-3000 gph on 65 watts or less i think , i know it sound crazy but its true ) they create a nice gentle wide flow leaving anything in it's wake is a nice smooth current not like a typhoon they a regular PH produces... then there are options ( on some brands) of controlers that can generate some crazy water movement, also be able to control when and how much current to produce...
imo 'stream' type pumps are the way to go... you get a lot for what they cost and end up saving you in the long run on electricity... if you dont like how they blow in a certain place then just move the PH... ( gl doing that with a CL) you wont understand what they can do until you actually have one to play with.. kinda like how MH and T5ho lighting are... btw, vortecs,tunze and koralia are all good buys... you get what you pay for but each and every one of them have they +/- .... again all good buys in my book...
HTH
YzGyz

 

[maelv]

Thanks for the information ThaNgBom

 

[thangbom]

NP
YzGyz

 

[ameno]

Lots of good info, I'm looking at putting a closed loop on my new tank also, But a little different setup. A few reasons I am looking at closed loop verses seperate power heads is that with the CL you are only dealing with one pump verses several. less mechanical equipment, less to go wrong. There are some pumps out there that are fairly efficient, From what I'm seeing the pumps with more head use a lot more wattage. with a closed loop you are not dealing with a lot of head normally. So a high gph pump with a low head would work good. Also the piping is pretty easy to modify to get the current set up the way you want it. I'm looking at using 1-1.5" bulkhead to supply the pump and run the return thru a OM and over the top of the tank. Not sure about the arrangement from there yet. For current around the bottom I am looking at running the sump return over the top and down below the sand bed and use lockline tubing to supply flow where I want it. Just my opinion, I'm still in the design process also.

 

[maelv]

You know that doesn't sound like a bad idea either.....no drilling..and if I can get the black pvc tubing, and paint the background black, it wouldn't be too noticeable.....thanks for the input ameno

 

[ameno]

Yea just one hole in the back and that's it. I was worried about the return running down the back but then when I thought about it the tank I have now has everything covered in coraline and that type thing isn't very noticable anymore.

 

[thangbom]

that over the top thing is how i plumbed my rerturn from my pump ( about 900gph) it go from the sump then piped down under the ssb and split off to 10 different outlet... i dint use lockline cuzz i cant afford it... so, i did the cheap way out..just a 90 el and a cap that has a cut on a slant on it... dint glue it on ... that way if i nede to chang the direction i just twist it off and push it back in the direction that i wanted... and yes... at first it looks weird but then coraline covers them right up and they blend right in... ( about the twisting off thing... it's a lot harder then it sound... if you ever wokrd with pvc then you know what im talking about... next time i will sand it down some to loosen it up)
the best flow pump i know of are Sequence Darts... great GPH for the watt... and yes.. they are purdy quiet compared to many other...
YzGyz

 

[maelv]

Originally Posted by ameno
Yea just one hole in the back and that's it. I was worried about the return running down the back but then when I thought about it the tank I have now has everything covered in coraline and that type thing isn't very noticable anymore.
Right, that coraline is the fix all to things not usually found in a tank...LOL...do you have any pictures of your tank posted? I'd like to take a look at it.
Originally Posted by ThaNgBom
that over the top thing is how i plumbed my rerturn from my pump ( about 900gph) it go from the sump then piped down under the ssb and split off to 10 different outlet... i dint use lockline cuzz i cant afford it... so, i did the cheap way out..just a 90 el and a cap that has a cut on a slant on it... dint glue it on ... that way if i nede to chang the direction i just twist it off and push it back in the direction that i wanted... and yes... at first it looks weird but then coraline covers them right up and they blend right in... ( about the twisting off thing... it's a lot harder then it sound... if you ever wokrd with pvc then you know what im talking about... next time i will sand it down some to loosen it up)
the best flow pump i know of are Sequence Darts... great GPH for the watt... and yes.. they are purdy quiet compared to many other...
YzGyz
Once again, thanks for the info...and how about you? Any pictures of the tank?

 

[big]

Well I am building one too. I will let you all know as I progress. I have all my parts and about one half of it plumbed. Hope yours goes well.

You will like the Sequence pump they are hard to beat for low head-rise. I have used them for years on my pond.
Mine is a basement sump/wet-dry and refugium. My head rise is a lot though, needing a much larger pump,for the rise and elbows. An in line 3600 gph but the math shows a bit under 1500 or so at the tank max. Built for up to almost 30 ft. head. My Max down-flow in also limited by my only 2 one inch drains down.

 

[thangbom]

No Prob again on the help. unfortunatly i dont really have the power to post pics or anything of the sort for a long time ( i know.. it sucks) my internet is via a Treo 700 ( my Bro's) ... do it it just a hair better then dial-up... it changes with the weather so... until i have DSL or cable i dont think i will spend all that time staring at a screen 'attaching' a pic... just not gonna happen... (that on top of having a crappy digi)
anyhow GL with the project
YzGyz

 

[maelv]

Thanks Big post a link to your build or throw pictures on here...either way works for me so I can get an idea.I know I will like the sequence, all i have had was a rowdy mag 18....
okay here are some 3rd grade renditions of what I am thinking of doing with the closed loop if I do not go with the Tunzes that Joncat suggested...If you look at from the front, that is what I was referring to when I mentioned that I shouldn't have any dead spots with the sea swirls split to agitate the top and one pointed towards the middle and then the ocean motion doing 1 & 3 at the same time and then alternating with 2 & 4 running simultaneously....at least on paper it sounds good....thoughts?
Top

Front

I plan on making it a 5" sand bed so all the bulkheads for the CL would be under the sand, and I would place rocks to cover the lock-lines so they wouldn't be visible.

 

[ameno]

Sounds like a good plan

. For some reason I couldn't see the pictures though. I'll try and post some picks next week, my home computor is dial-up also, so I do that kinda stuff from my work computor. The tank I have up now is a 80 gal. hex with a 30 gal refug. all out in the open, looks like a mad sientist project. The new tank is a 125 with a 65 gal refug/sump/skimmer. I've started a thread on here about it but have not put picks up yet, so for I have had a metal stand built and am making a wood exterior around the stand so I can hide all the equipment, I'm leaving an opening around the refugium, so I can have it set up like a smaller tank. Last week I set the 65 gal up and have it running, the 125 is still laying out on my deck,this weekend I plan to drill the 2-1.5" holes in it, one for the overflow and one for the closed loop, I guess I'll find out if the sides are tempered glass or not.

I would like to see what you have planned for your piping arrangemant around the top, I have not thought all that out yet on what I need.

 

[maelv]

Originally Posted by ameno
Sounds like a good plan

. For some reason I couldn't see the pictures though. I'll try and post some picks next week, my home computor is dial-up also, so I do that kinda stuff from my work computor. The tank I have up now is a 80 gal. hex with a 30 gal refug. all out in the open, looks like a mad sientist project. The new tank is a 125 with a 65 gal refug/sump/skimmer. I've started a thread on here about it but have not put picks up yet, so for I have had a metal stand built and am making a wood exterior around the stand so I can hide all the equipment, I'm leaving an opening around the refugium, so I can have it set up like a smaller tank. Last week I set the 65 gal up and have it running, the 125 is still laying out on my deck,this weekend I plan to drill the 2-1.5" holes in it, one for the overflow and one for the closed loop, I guess I'll find out if the sides are tempered glass or not.

That is good stuff. 125 is a good size.....I had a 135 and enjoyed it...LOL...hopefully the sides aren't tempered...
Originally Posted by ameno
I would like to see what you have planned for your piping arrangemant around the top, I have not thought all that out yet on what I need.
As for the top, the return comes out of the corner overflow....so It will come up out of the overflow, a 90 elbow and into the sea swirls....on either side....like I said on paper (and in my mind), it sounds and looks good...we'll have to see.

 

[murph145]

i have a closed loop on my tank which i love i use the Reeflo dart pump on my 180 with the OM4way it works awesome very nice setup... time consuming sort of.... luckily im pretty handy and can picture stuff and put it together pretty fast.... i think for my whole CL setup pump OM and piping i spent around $700-$750 including having my tank which is glass drilled when i custom ordered it....
i also just installed my first "Paid" for closed loop for a client at a chinese food restraunt.... he has a 240G tank its 8' long but only 18" wide and 30" deep its an inwall setup hes making it a full on reef tank... anyways i used the Sequence Reeflo Barracuda on this setup and just hooked it up this thing puts out some serious flow! i drilled one 1.5" bulkead hole which means i really used a 2.5" hole saw blade... he has a 3/4" thick acrylic tank they only take a few minutes to drill so made it very easy hooked up all the plumming... he didnt wanna go with a OM unit so i just plummed 3 returns all 1" on the top back drilled threw the euro bracing and put some nozzels on it and this thing rocks... closed loops are very nice but they do eat power especially our power rates are pretty steep in so cal.... trade off to me is the closed loop looks much cleaner when done right compared to powerheads but powerheads are much easier and save on the elcetric bill u gotta weight the pros and cons....
ur setups look nice and u will love either way u go

 

[maelv]

Thanks Murph.....for a 220 would you use a hammerhead or a barracude, or the dart????
I am thinking of mainly SPS....which would you recommend? And did you get your stuff used or new? trying to price things....
And your set up does sound sweet man....really nice. And I agree, I do think that I will like either set up I end up going with.

 

[murph145]

if i were u i would go with the Barracuda on a 220.... i run the Dart on my 180G SPS tank but i still have another 2 - seios in there for more flow a 1500 and 820... i thought the Dart would be fine on my tank and it is to a degree but i wanted to up the flow even more so...
the Cuda is pretty darn sweet hook it up to an OM-4 way or even better an 8 way! and u will be styling... if u do a 4 way use 4-1" returns its pleanty of power!

 

[maelv]

Originally Posted by murph145
if i were u i would go with the Barracuda on a 220.... i run the Dart on my 180G SPS tank but i still have another 2 - seios in there for more flow a 1500 and 820... i thought the Dart would be fine on my tank and it is to a degree but i wanted to up the flow even more so...
the Cuda is pretty darn sweet hook it up to an OM-4 way or even better an 8 way! and u will be styling... if u do a 4 way use 4-1" returns its pleanty of power!
Good looking out Murph....if that is the route I end up going I may have to look you up for some information.....I am fairly handy but this will be my first CL.....I was really leaning towards the Hammerhead, but I guess the Barracude will do just fine as well...just in the planning stages yet, so it may be a while, but thanks for the information...