Closed minded board?

[lesleybird]

Hi, I just wonder why the moderaters on this board say that hyposalinity is the only way to go for ich. It seems that hyposalinity does not work well for a lot of people. Why doesn't anyone suggest using hyposalinity in combination with a medication like reef safe Kick Ich for higher cure rates? Maybe even sticking some in your tank that is fishless to kill the swimmers? All the moderaters here say it does not work and is just like using nothing even though I have had had outbreaks in my tank and used the Kick for six weeks in a row and all the fish lived and I did not have another outbreak until two whole years later and when I added a new fish it came down with ich and now two weeks later all the fish in the tank are eating well and I only see the occasional ich spot so I will continue to use it for another month like I did in the past until the fish have developed a lot of immunity and the ich population is either weakened or gone. It is not water, it is a antiprotozoal medication in the same family as one given to people called flagyl.
After doing a search on here and on the internet I have read that a product called Stop Parasites by a company named Chem-Marin is also relatively effective. I think that this pepper treatment which causes the fish to over secret the slime coat causing the swimmers either to not be able to attach well to the body of the fish and the part of the medication that says it has some small particals that falsely attract the ich swimmers making them think they are sticking to a fish may also be a plus. I think it might be ok to use in combination with the Kick Ich for an even more effective treatment as they both stop the ich at different parts of the ich life cycle and work on fish and the swimmers in a totally different way.
I am not sure if one ever gets the ich totally out of the tank but know that the Kick Ich has worked for me twice in the past but only when it is used for about six weeks through many life cycles as it only kills in the swimming stage and may not get all the swimmers before they attach. All my fish that had the ich have survided and thrived for years after the treatment in the same tank. I used the Kick for two different times in the last five years and it worked both times when used at the highest dose for six weeks without interuption.
The people on this board that used the reef safe Stop Parasites successfully in older posts were also scoffed at by the HYPO GODS on this boad.
They claim that this is the only way to go and I say it just isn't so! Maybe the fish can live with a low level of ich in the system after they have developed immunity after an acute attack. I am a registered nurse and have studied different treatments for my patients and have learned to think outside of the hypo box. Lesley

 

[viper_930]

Is there actually a reason why you're pointing fingers at moderators in particular?

 

[lesleybird]

No, but Beth has the first post and permanent thread kind of stated that hypo is the one and only way to go. What knowledge to these posters have? I would only listen with half an ear if they are not microbiologists that have done lots of research on the disease in controlled studies using different treatments. Sorry if I offended anyone, but the people on here that talk about hypo as the only way to go....I just don't see why there is such a closed mind set.
Really, hypo is very problematic in the logistics of removing all your fish....this is only if you have had a cycled hospital tank large enough and already set up when your fish get the ich. Most likely, most do not, and putting the fish into an uncycled tank to do hypo which a lot of people on the web say is only effective part of the time, and requires that one find and purchase a refractometer...and they say to do the hypo slowly over several days. Well, if you do it slowly a lot of fish who are heavily infected will die before it kicks in. I just don't see hypo as the only alternative. I see it as a last resort. The fish did not die while infected with the ich while using the Kick Ich product and had a light outbreak that went on and off a few of the ich life cycles a few spots here and there until after about six weeks of treatment the little ich things were exausted. The reason people say it does not work is they stop treating the fish after only two to four weeks and it takes about six weeks of treatment to cure the fish.
I pray that I never have to do hypo as it is too much trouble. Do you know how big of a hospital tank pre-cycled one would have to set up for all the fish in a 90 or 180 gallon tank? I just cannot keep that size tank set up on hand. I don't think removing a little bit bio balls or something from your main tank can keep the amonia from going too high with your whole load of fish in an uncycled tank. Talk about stressing the fish out?? I did just set up a 29 gallon quarentine tank that has been cycling for 11 days now. Good luck to all, but please keep an open mind as I think that modern science can find a way to treat the ich in the main tank without killing corals, inverts or your biological filter. If one tries the Kick Ich early on and it does not work after the six weeks the fish will still be alive and you can have a cycled tank ready for doing hypo if you feel the need for the main tank to be fallow for 5 or 6 weeks. Lesley

 

[earlybird]

I don't know much about kich ich but I will say that the majority of people especially mods on this board prefer to go the "natural" route when it comes to their tanks. Beth does claim that copper works as well as hypo but it can have adverse effects. Through research I have come to the same conclusion that hypo if done correctly (with emphasis on "correctly") is all that you'll need to treat ich. It is not easy to hypo however. You must have a properly calibrated refractometer to perform hypo. Believe it or not there are a lot of people out here that don't have a properly calibrated refractometer. Read about it here. If this step is skipped you'll just be spinning your wheels and can result in a lost fish.
When you speak of the logistics of removing all your fish and placing into a hospital tank, understand that the mods preach using a quarantine tank prior to introducing a fish to the display tank for exactly this reason.

 

[crimzy]

I'm with you, Lesley. I have used Stop Parasite, and have seen it used, with excellent success. You raise excellent points regarding hypo. I'm not sure why those who have positive experiences with these products are met with such resistence, especially from those who have expertise in this field. Apparently some people believe that they are so well informed in this hobby that they have nothing left to learn from others' experiences.

 

[clown boy]

I dare say that Beth knows what she is talking about... medications are fake.

 

[lesleybird]

Originally Posted by Clown Boy
I dare say that Beth knows what she is talking about... medications are fake.
Clown Boy.....Then I have successfully used what you call a fake medication related to the human antiparasite medication flagyl for much longer periods of time than listed on the bottle with repeated results and all fish living? You have not tried it the way that I have, using the strongest dose for 6 weeks.
Another person has tried the Stop Parasites medication with repeated success. Not fake, the stuff is made from plants as a lot of human medicines are as the pepper irritates the fishes membranes causing them to make constant extra slime coat in which it is difficult for the swimming stage of ich to attach to so they die before they complete this stage of their life cycle. I can see that there are also problems with this as your tank needs to have a lot of buffering capacity and the manufacturer says only to use it for 5 days so there would be still some ich cysts in the sand not treated. I think that this may be a good extra therapy with some value to use with something like the Kick Ich. Nothing in the tank looked stressed when I used the Kick Ich.
So, if everyone had your mind set nothing in science would ever advance. I agree that hypo osmolarity treatment can be useful if a person has all the time and equiptment to do it exactly as listed, but to be against all medications and say that hypo is the natural way, like there is something inherantly better about "natural", and is totally without stress to the fish or problems is bogus.
If humans did not use some medicines like antibiotics a lot of us would be dead. At the turn of the century the life expectancy of humans using the "natural" methods was 49, now the average life span is something like 77. All medicines are not inherently bad because you say they are not natural. My shrimp, sails and hermits and shrimp are still alive and so are my fish and the few corals that I have which is only a brain and some mushrooms. I have bought and set up a quarentine in the last two weeks but will only do hypo if nothing else works first. The problem most people have is that they wait too long to start any type of treatment and the fish are too weak and heavily infested for anything to work. With ich the treatments need to be started right away when the first spots are seen, maybe only on just one fish, for good results. A lot of people wait until their fish are half dead and then say the medication did not work, or it killed them when they die. Lesley

 

[baloo6969]

First I only use meds and copper when introducing fish to my DT.
Reasons *mods* as you say, or people on this forum tend to do hypo is because 1 its less stressful to the fish. 2 it's cheaper. 3 it's reliable (in the sense that you can test for levels easier) apposed to 1 tab/10gal/week. 4 it's more natural. 5 they've done it/had other's do it before with great success. 6 it's there preference.
I love my fish, but some users on here get so attached to there "fish" that they forget that there "fish"...I'm not going to buy a large enough QT tank, let it cycle, then get a new fish and have it live comfortably in it for 4+ weeks in hypo, and then slowly raise the SG, then put in DT...
IMO a fish is a fish, I’m not one of those nuts that worry about the pain and temporary suffering of a fish...i get a 10gal tank, HOB filter, heater, small light, and a bottle of Copper. and anti-biotics for 2 week, then 1/2~1 week off, then in the tank they go...this way i know they have nothing, and i dont have to spend 2 days breaking down my tank to scoop out all the fish, to put them in a big tank to...continue the cycle. QT->DT + 4 weeks
Some people get very emotionally attached to there fish the min they see them...not me. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[clown boy]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
Clown Boy.....Then I have successfully used what you call a fake medication related to the human antiparasite medication flagyl for much longer periods of time than listed on the bottle with repeated results and all fish living? You have not tried it the way that I have, using the strongest dose for 6 weeks.
Hmm... well... I sure do wish I could hear what Beth and Ryan have to say about this...

 

[bellaroxio]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
Clown Boy.....Then I have successfully used what you call a fake medication related to the human antiparasite medication flagyl for much longer periods of time than listed on the bottle with repeated results and all fish living? You have not tried it the way that I have, using the strongest dose for 6 weeks.
Another person has tried the Stop Parasites medication with repeated success. Not fake, the stuff is made from plants as a lot of human medicines are as the pepper irritates the fishes membranes causing them to make constant extra slime coat in which it is difficult for the swimming stage of ich to attach to so they die before they complete this stage of their life cycle. I can see that there are also problems with this as your tank needs to have a lot of buffering capacity and the manufacturer says only to use it for 5 days so there would be still some ich cysts in the sand not treated. I think that this may be a good extra therapy with some value to use with something like the Kick Ich. Nothing in the tank looked stressed when I used the Kick Ich.
So, if everyone had your mind set nothing in science would ever advance. I agree that hypo osmolarity treatment can be useful if a person has all the time and equiptment to do it exactly as listed, but to be against all medications and say that hypo is the natural way, like there is something inherantly better about "natural", and is totally without stress to the fish or problems is bogus.
If humans did not use some medicines like antibiotics a lot of us would be dead. At the turn of the century the life expectancy of humans using the "natural" methods was 49, now the average life span is something like 77. All medicines are not inherently bad because you say they are not natural. My shrimp, sails and hermits and shrimp are still alive and so are my fish and the few corals that I have which is only a brain and some mushrooms. I have bought and set up a quarentine in the last two weeks but will only do hypo if nothing else works first. The problem most people have is that they wait too long to start any type of treatment and the fish are too weak and heavily infested for anything to work. With ich the treatments need to be started right away when the first spots are seen, maybe only on just one fish, for good results. A lot of people wait until their fish are half dead and then say the medication did not work, or it killed them when they die. Lesley
due to Hypo? I am on the 1st day of my Hypo incoming fish. Down to 1.015 and will get to 1.009 within the next 24hours. I am doing this because I believe this board.
But has anyone thougt about the stresses to the fish's kidney due to hyposalinity?
BTW, my quick cure treatment in my DT, though started late after 4 fishes died, has managed to turn around the tang and clown. As of this morning, the yellow tang has less icks and is eating like a HORSE. Ditto for the Clown.

 

[baloo6969]

Originally Posted by bellaroxio
due to Hypo? I am on the 1st day of my Hypo incoming fish. Down to 1.015 and will get to 1.009 within the next 24hours. I am doing this because I believe this board.
But has anyone thougt about the stresses to the fish's kidney due to hyposalinity?
BTW, my quick cure treatment in my DT, though started late after 4 fishes died, has managed to turn around the tang and clown. As of this morning, the yellow tang has less icks and is eating like a HORSE. Ditto for the Clown.
part of the cycle of ick is to fall off host, reproduce, then cling back on...

 

[michaeltx]

none of us or the people that stand by hypo are closed minded.
we stand by what works and is proven over and over again to be the best method of getting rid of ich.
I have used some of these products that you guys are talking about and once you loose $2000 worth of corals and inverts because of a "SAFE" product then please do not call us closed minded. There are a lot of different products that say they are safe to used with inverts part of the probablem if I remember right isnt ich an invert to? most of theses meds also have copper in them which devastate inverts but are called REEF safe meds.
there are many many many differents ways to look at hypo but to me the best thing to think about is why introduce them in the first place when you can hypo in a seperate tank and if done right its 100% effective without any risk to your inverts that are safe and sound in another tank.
no about removing the fish from a display to hypo treat will if its done when its supposed to be BEFORE the fish goes into the display then there is no problem cause you wont introduce it into the tank in the first place.
I have lost a lot of money on quick cures and miracle products and I can tell you its cost me alot more than what the meds cost in the first place.
Mike

 

[beth]

I have to differ from any statements made about me claiming that hyposalinity is "the only way to treat ich". Hyposalinity and copper are the most viable treatments for ich. This means that using one of these methods has the highest degree of success in treating ich. While some of the so-called reef medications may work, at times, their success rate is so poor that by the time the hobbyist has gone through the process of using these meds, and realized that it doesn't work, they have wasted precious time on a "treatment" that has a poor success rate. You are simply fortunate that they have worked for you. I have posted topics in the FAQ Thread posted by SWF members and their experiences with theses meds. I don't believe I've seen too many positive results. Occasional success is poor results in my book.
Also, there are risks associated with dosing a display containing corals, LR, and inverts with the "reef-safe" meds. False advertising, in my view, and hardly "safe".

 

[ophiura]

You are free to express your opinions. However, I do not really appreciate the generalizations about "all the mods" and the overall tone of this post. I think it is unnecessarily confrontational.
We will all have stories of what worked for us. But we often fall back on tried and true methods in this particular forum, IMO.
The problem here is lack of controlled treatments, with hobbyists throwing out experiences that span very different circumstances. I have "cured" ick by doing nothing more than removing the "stressor" in the tank (another fish) and doing a few basic things. We often do a lot of things when treating ick - look for a stress, improve water quality, add cleaner shrimp, improve food offerings, throw in some meds, use garlic, add a UV...all at the same time. What is it that "cures" it? Could be many things...could be nothing... but if it goes away, bam, there is a correlation, which does not mean a cure. In science that is a major pitfall.
I, for one, would not promote my particular approach specifically, because it was very clear to me what the source of the problem was...but I could promote it and people do with their advice. In my opinion though, I would be doing a disservice. However I will always ask people to assess the stress in their tank.
There are many treatment options for ick. But there are few really tried and true methods, IMO, that are most likely to work, safe, and are reasonable options for most to use (eg Formalin and malachite green work but are rather nasty for users). If you feel you have had success, then so be it. Share your experiences, but I can say that a quick "kick ick worked!" will likely be met with skepticism. Do not assume, BTW, that others have no experience with the product being discussed.
But I am not sure how this "closed minded board?" and similar judgments on the mods helps such an issue.

 

[fishcurse]

i have used meds and they have been pretty effective for me. in fact the first time i heard of hypo was here in these boards. i havent read it here anywhere but when ive had a bad outbreak on top of medicating ive given my fish a 3-5 min freshwater bath and it has always helped get the ick off the fish almost overnight. i guess that might be like shock hypo or something

 

[michaeltx]

thats is very stressful on the fish though and can make the infection worse if they go into a system when ich is already present in one of the other stages it will be attack even faster and worse because it weakens the immune system to a degree and stress' the fish out.
Mike

 

[ophiura]

Freshwater dips are somewhat effective for the same reason hypo is - but the shock part is one of the reasons it can be a problem. Ideally the parameters of the water (temp, pH, etc) are basically the same as the tank it is coming from. It is best employed before adding fist to a proper QT...but not as a treatment of a fish in an infected display tank. It also can be highly stressful on a fish if not done correctly, and there are several other possible issues that can arise.
It is definitely not one of the most effective treatments for ick, however. Long term exposure to hypo is more effective and less of a stress...within limits.

 

[f14peter]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
What knowledge to these posters have? I would only listen with half an ear if they are not microbiologists that have done lots of research on the disease in controlled studies using different treatments.
You're soooo right ... of the collective decades of experience in serious aquarium keeping the moderators have, what possible use could that be to us?
Also seems to me that the moderators take a "treat the disease instead of the symptom" approach ... why would somebody want to totally eradicate a problem parasite when merely keeping it off the fish for a while is so much better?
If my tone sounds sarcastic, then you're right on. I'm pretty smart ... smart enough to know when I don't know something, and am happy to rely upon the real-world experience of the people who have been down the road before me.

 

[beth]

As for micro biology....this is a fish hobby, not a biology lab. Just about all of us in this hobby are ammeter hobbyists, meaning non-professionals. Few are actually professionals and I have read a few books on fish diseases written by these aquarists. I stand by hyposalinity as the first and best choice for treating ich which is backed by experts.
Its not the only choice, but its track record far surpasses the "reef meds".

 

[jennythebugg]

Originally Posted by f14peter
You're soooo right ... of the collective decades of experience in serious aquarium keeping the moderators have, what possible use could that be to us?
Also seems to me that the moderators take a "treat the disease instead of the symptom" approach ... why would somebody want to totally eradicate a problem parasite when merely keeping it off the fish for a while is so much better?
If my tone sounds sarcastic, then you're right on. I'm pretty smart ... smart enough to know when I don't know something, and am happy to rely upon the real-world experience of the people who have been down the road before me.
........................................................................................................
here here the mods take alot of crap, but are always back everyday to answer our questions, we have found them to be very knowledgable and helpful, God knows if it werent for lion crazz and michaeltx we would have a tank full of 'floaters'