Closed minded board?

[lion_crazz]

Most of what I would say has already been said by my fellow moderators, but I wanted to add a few things because I, too, was a bit offended that you labeled the moderators as close-minded.
The moderators here are the farthest from close-minded. Beth, Sepulatian (though not a mod, yet) and myself all openly admit that they are TWO ways to effectively remove ich: copper and hyposalinity. However, we all favor hyposalinity because of the ill-effects copper can have on many different types of fish (puffers, angels, butterflies, tangs, gobies, eels, sharks, etc.)
Leslie, I found many flaws with your posts in this thread, however, there are only a few things which I will highlight because I do not have the space or time to go through your posts point by point.
It seems that hyposalinity does not work well for a lot of people.
Because it must be done correctly. The first step is having a properly calibrated refractometer. The same goes for copper. If the copper level in a system is not maintained at the right level, copper can be just as unsuccessful.
Why doesn't anyone suggest using hyposalinity in combination with a medication like reef safe Kick Ich for higher cure rates?
We have all used and sampled these products, and we have helped a countless number of people. We have seen the results and non of us like them. We also realize that it is impossible to make a medication that kills one invertebrate but not others.
Maybe even sticking some in your tank that is fishless to kill the swimmers?
There is no reason for this. If you leave the tank fishless for the required amount of time, ich will not live because it needs a host to survive. Why waste money and dump unnecessary chemicals into your tank?
If humans did not use some medicines like antibiotics a lot of us would be dead.
This is apples and oranges. Medications such as antibiotics have been tested and proven for decades. Fish medications are a dime a dozen. Just take a look at all of the fish companies out there. They all have their own fish medication which claims to be the best out there. SeaChem, Kent, ChemMarin, Ruby Reef, Jungle, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals all have their own medications that they recommend. They all say that they are reef-safe and that they work. This is false-advertising at its best. I will not even get into the argument about killing one invert and not another, however, simply put, "reef-safe" medications can and sometimes will wipe out an entire display tank - used properly or not. I have seen it happen way too many times and that is simply just a risk that I am not willing to take with my tank that I love very much.
When I give my advice, I speak from my years of experience in this hobby, as well as the countless number of books that I have read about the marine aquarium hobby. If you wish to dump countless amounts of money down the drain on a product that may or may not "work", by all means, it is your tank and your money. I will continue to use and advise others of the best way that I have found to prevent and treat a disease - a quarantine of ALL new additions, as well as a treatment through hyposalinity if ich appears during the quarantine period. This method is infallible when done properly, and does not cost even close to the potential amount of money wasted on medications.
However, please do not call me, the moderators, or any other member on this message board close-minded. I speak simply from my experience, both with my own tank and with helping thousands of people with their tanks as well.

 

[wilsonreef]

Originally Posted by jennythebugg
........................................................................................................
here here the mods take alot of crap, but are always back everyday to answer our questions, we have found them to be very knowledgable and helpful, God knows if it werent for lion crazz and michaeltx we would have a tank full of 'floaters'
JEEEZ...did you have to say that about michaeltx? Good Grief, you have no idea what you've just done!!!! This guy gets the big head when you brag on him!.....oh, hey Mike.

 

[autofreak44]

well im glad we got that straightened out... btw mods you rock, you open-minded, experience ridden, reefin freaks

 

[al mc]

Sorry, could not resist to put my two cents worth in.
With my profession (veterinarian) I have access to several information networks for 'vets only'. The largest one is VIN. They have a Q and A section and archived articles. Most info applies to cat/dog/horse/cow topics.
However, there are two aquatic vets that often answer postings. I have never read one that indicated that anything other than copper or hyposalinity could eliminate ICH. There are other treatments and they may work for some. Most are considered adjunct therapies. As ophiura noted there are many variables to consider in the cessation or reoccurrence of ICH.
Stress induced by overcrowding, bullying, poor water quality all have to be considered as possible causes ,or by reversing them, reasons for regression of ICH.
As for new medicines giving us longer or better quality lives. Most do/will,
but tylenol causes more liver toxicity and failure than any other drug and it is sold over trhe counter and considered 'safe'....it causes these problems because people use it off label.
I do not know what the LD50 (lethal dose in 50% of the cases) is for metronidazole, the active ingredient in Kick Ich for fish and inverts. I do know in human and veterinary mammalian medicine it causes liver damage/failure if used for prolonged periods at higher than 'labelled dosing'.
I respect all opinions, but they are just that..opinions, whether it be mine, other board members or the moderators. You have to assimilate it all and come up with what you feel is the most acceptable plan in your own situation.
I have not tried the off label use of Kick Ich. It probably works great. But I have used hyposalinity and it did work great for me.
Beth, Oph, Tex, Lion and Sep (I consider her a moderator) never preached to me as a newbie and tolerate my presence, even after a year or so of questions by me that they have answered several hundred times....

 

[nicetry]

Interesting exchange of ideas. I can appreciate lesley's POV, in that the bottled product worked for her. I think that "sometimes" various bottled cures have some benefit to hobbyists. The problem here is the fact that it is pretty much random. THe biggest drawback to any of the bottled treatments is that they simply don't work with enough consistancy to be called reliable. In 10 odd years of keeping SW fish, I have had a couple of bouts of ******. I was sold the bottled treatments which, in my case, did nothing. After learning about the importance of quarantine and having a hospital tank, it was more of an "insurance policy", and I've never had a parasite problem since. It falls back to prevention and being proactive. I seriously live for the day when a bottled cure comes out for fish disease that works all the time. Hypo IS a PITA. It's time consuming, and having to catch fish from a display and taking apart your tank is more than frustrating. Yes, some fish don't respond well to hyposalinity, but it's not the treatmentt, it's the manifestation of the illness. Truth is, hypo is safe and it works..if the fish is treated on time and the hobbyist is familiar/comfortable with the procedure and has the necessary tools to work with. Most, if not all of the largest public aquariums in the country rely on hyposalinity therapy to treat parasites in fish. none that I know of use "Kick ich" or "paraguard". There's a reason. None of the published disease experts (Terry B, Steven Pro, e.g.) recommend or endorse these meds, again, simply becaue they don't work consistantly. How can we say it works, if it only works "sometimes"? I've always felt that sometimes, fish get better in spite of these treatments, rather than because of them. Sadly, we are a quick fix culture. We have

[hr]
for everything and we want results w/o having to be patient or do some added work. The biggest argument I hear against quarantine or hyposalinity is how much extra work it is. So what! Maintaining a quarantine tank is really no big deal. Quarantine is a good practice and if you adhere to it, you'll likely never have disease in your tank. Again, something the big public aquariums have known for years. We're just doing it on a smaller scale. I guess I can liken this to being personally ill, and having my doctor tell me that he is going to try something with a dubious track record and hope it works, as opposed to trying something with a proven record of success, even if it means a longer recovery period and some minor inconvenience. In the end, you all choose which interventions you want to use. None are 100 % but failure in some is due to complications caused by the illness, and not failure of the actual treatment. I would also add that a random perusal of any SW board will probably yield a less than favorable report of the bottled cures. I think for every case of success, there are at least 9 or 10 that report it didn't work for them. I don't think anyone is being close minded, but I can't endorse something that for me has personally failed, and that I have seen fail so many other hobbyists. I routinely advocate for hyposalinity and quarantine. Sadly, even after a few years on these boards, the concept hasn't caught on, and too many hobbyists get caught with their pants down and a tank full of sick fish.

 

[lesleybird]

Hey guys, Now that everyone is all stirred up on this nightmare we call ich topic I have a couple of more thoughts. I think as a lot of authors that I have read say that a lot, and maybe even most tanks already have ich present in the tanks, but just not in great enough numbers to overwhelm the fish population unless stressed. Maybe, if like most of you say that the Kick could not have possibably have killed all the ich from the tank two, (more like tree and a half), years earlier then the fishes own immune systems must have kept them in check after exposure which is good enough for a lot of us. I have had my Majestic angelfish for three and a half years, and my sixline wrass for five years and they have been moved with the entire substrate from one tank to a bigger with the substrate and rocks from the ich infested tank 5 years ago with only the Kick Ich medication, not hypo being used. They have not had a constant case of visable ich that made them sick over this period...Either the Kick got rid of it, or the fish can live with it after they survive through the first infection. Maybe total removal of the ich that hypo claims is not an easy or necessary goal for all of us given the daunting task of it. Maybe getting the fish to survive long enough until they have enough antibodies to fend it off through their own immunity without medication should be the goal, not total irradication of the parasite. I don't use the Kick stuff in a higher consentration than on the bottle...there are two dosing concentrations listed depending on level of infestation. I use the higher does and dose half this every day instead of the full dose every other day. This is not a higher dose in totality, only spread out more evenly with out the gap of every other day dosing. I have read one persons individual study trying different reef safe medications and the Kick was one of the very safest.
What about using Kick, usinging the pepper for over slime coat secreation and a micron filter of 25 microns together? One could filter out a lot of the swimmers with this. UV is also good but cannot be used with medication as it degrades most of them. I am not saying that hypo is not an option, but, I would only resort to that for my largest and favorite fish, my Majestic Angel, as I can't do hypo all the fish in the tank, and most people won't either, at least not those of us that work for a living and have other things to do. I do now have a quarenteen tank set up but most new fish will get ich from the display so I have to medicate the whole tank for a while until the new fish have enough immunity to the ich. Lesley

 

[reefforbrains]

Should I even whip this horse?...........
Of course, long dead but who cares.
Sep, Nicetry,........... We have wrangled in the past about treatments and while we may frustrate one another at times. The second, third, tenth pair of eyes is sometimes good for fresh looks at the issues. I like my ways, mine work for me, but I will concede that trying to walk a newbie through some of the paces I force my system to hold would be just pushing them into a crash.
Many know my practices are unorthadox and sometimes downright backwards from the rule books. They work great for me but I know my systems. To try and tell someone to put thier tank on the verge of a crash and HOLD it there for two weeks would be horrible advice to someone not preparred.
I personally do not put ALL of my eggs in the hypo route.
Alas- As I am often reminded. This board is full of people that cant tell aptasia from anthias. Now Now-Not to insult the newbies, This hobby has a harsh learning curve and our own habits that we steer our own courses with develops with experience. I believe that the general advice of the board is taylored to be understood by the newbie. Complicated water chem and balances with such little margin for error is not for someone just starting out. Someone completley unprepared to tweek and hold thier system at such extreme danger zones to combat desease with counter attacks beyond basic Hypo.
I have charged the mound at most Mods on this board and found that they indeed do have open minds but are tongue in cheek about backing advice that is dangerous to someone that is unpreparred for the extremes.
Bottled cures work, hypo works, copper amongst a dozen more do work, but hypo is the safest and post predictable method that can be held, replicated time and time again so it is the favorite.
I will sometimes kick a Mod in the shins for not saying what they really want to say, but you certainly cant slap them in the face for keeping an even keel. After all thats thier whole role. Bring experience and taylor it to the individual in a plan language that yeilds the best results.
AKA HYPO
Woah thats some soapbox......OK back to lurking -RFB

 

[beth]

The whole problem can be so easily resolved by quarantining new fish. Why people are hell-bent on risking all to avoid setting up a 2nd bare-bones tank is hard to understand.
Ich is only present in fish tanks if it is introduced by infected fish. It is not a given that this parasite will be in every tank. It is very likely, however, that every fish that is not QTed first is very likely to intro the parasite into the display.

 

[nicetry]

Originally Posted by Beth
The whole problem can be so easily resolved by quarantining new fish. Why people are hell-bent on risking all to avoid setting up a 2nd bare-bones tank is hard to understand.
Pretty much sums it up!

 

[jonny]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
I pray that I never have to do hypo as it is too much trouble. Do you know how big of a hospital tank pre-cycled one would have to set up for all the fish in a 90 or 180 gallon tank? I just cannot keep that size tank set up on hand. I don't think removing a little bit bio balls or something from your main tank can keep the amonia from going too high with your whole load of fish in an uncycled tank. Talk about stressing the fish out?? I did just set up a 29 gallon quarentine tank that has been cycling for 11 days now. Lesley
alrighty well i have a 210g and in the cost of that i also including keeping a 46g and a 75g up and running at all times. if you don't i feel that you shouldn't have the 210g. at least have the access to them. they don't need to be setup for you can get a hospital tank up and running in a couple of days. i think its just stupid to not prepare yourself there. maybe i'm alone on that one but i think that comment of yours is just pretty ignorant.
also from my experience anything that kills ich usually kills and/or effects the other inverts in the tank. usually when things die they start to decay and your ammonia goes up. so in a round abouts way you are stressing your fish that way as well letting the parasite effect them.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
Hey guys, Now that everyone is all stirred up on this nightmare we call ich topic I have a couple of more thoughts. I think as a lot of authors that I have read say that a lot, and maybe even most tanks already have ich present in the tanks, but just not in great enough numbers to overwhelm the fish population unless stressed. ...
I would like to read more on this. Can you sight references?

 

[ophiura]

I think that this is possible if you do not fully QT all of your fish. If you do not, I would personally assume that it is entirely possible at some point you will get an ick outbreak. You can go with the same fish for years, with no apparent issue, and then suddenly get an outbreak if things start going bad.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by ophiura
I think that this is possible if you do not fully QT all of your fish. If you do not, I would personally assume that it is entirely possible at some point you will get an ick outbreak. You can go with the same fish for years, with no apparent issue, and then suddenly get an outbreak if things start going bad.
Gotcha. I agree with that.
I've just heard this "all tanks have ich" thing thrown around before. If you assume the tank has had non-QT'd species added that makes sense. I think that is an important caveat that needs to be added to the statement, however.

 

[teen]

Originally Posted by Lesleybird
I would only listen with half an ear if they are not microbiologists that have done lots of research on the disease in controlled studies using different treatments.
thats gotta be the most ignorant statement ive ever heard on this board.
why even join the board if you would only listen to someone if they are a biologist of some type?
i took a marine biology course last semester in college. i guarantee i know more about things that go inside an aquairum than my professor did. if we were to go to the beach, and talk about some seaweed, i guarantee she could talk circles around me.
this hobby is more about experience, and i would listen to somebody with a lot of experience before i listened to someone who was booksmart.

 

[1journeyman]

Be nice...
For the record, however, check out Ophiura's resume sometime (she's fairly humble, but if you ask nicely she might share some of her credentials. Be prepared to weep for doubting her, however.) If you need an expert in Inverts she's not a bad person to end up talking to.
As for disease treatment; if you were to take a poll of the posters here, I'd bet Beth and the other Mods have walked 90% of forum members through diseases, feeding issues, etc.
I'm in awe of their skills and knowledge.
You can't trust vendors and suppliers. There is a movie clip of a Big Name Aquarium supply/food Company on a morning talk show shortly after Nemo came out. It was apalling how a saltwater tank was set up and fish added in minutes on the show.
Companies have an agenda; Mods don't. Trust me, I'm sure Beth grew tired of explaining Hypo years ago. If there was a product that worked better she would have gone with it.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Be nice...
I'm sure Beth grew tired of explaining Hypo years ago.
There was a time long ago when I was fondly, or not so fondly, known as the hypo queen around these parts.

Most of the very common ailments and treatments are covered in the FAQ Thread....a product of me getting writer's cramp from typing the same advise over and over. LOL
Again, mods did not invent the disease treatments. We just share knowledge and experiences.

 

[michaeltx]

LOL that wasnt that long ago was it Beth
Now I would like to point out one thing about this thread to prove we are not closed minded we have all participated in the thread and given out thoughts and engaged in a thread that we were called closed minded without closing the thread that should speak for itself that we are open to be challenged on our thoughts and will let you know why we do what we do.

This hobby changes on a daily basis there are a few things that stay constant are ich treatments most all of the newer ich treatments are not around anymore and have fallen to the side because the safety of them wasnt as good as they were initially claimed to be.
Mike

 

[ophiura]

Originally Posted by Beth
Again, mods did not invent the disease treatments.

Speak for yourself, Beth....

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Speak for yourself, Beth....

Ya, and I think I actually created a couple of marine diseases in my first tank years ago...

 

[thud]

Dang!
How about suggesting a new way to cure ich (or discuss your success with something other than hypo) rather than point fingers hahaha.
You've attracted all of the mods!
Luckily I haven't encountered ich... yet.