Common misconceptions on swf.com

[jamparty]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Fair enough, I see that he is offering an opinion to a newbe in the context of an online question and answer. I wonder, if this is an absolute rule as presumed by so many on here, why the requirement is not listed on the informative section of this reference. I further wonder how Fenner would feel about a yellow tang being housed in a 48" x 48" 200-300 gallon tank. Just curious...

you should ask him

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I further wonder how Fenner would feel about a yellow tang being housed in a 48" x 48" 200-300 gallon tank. Just curious...
I think the assumption is a person with a 4ft tank usually doesn't have a 4x4 tank and the 6ft rule is general advice. Like I said its an oppinion and no one has to comply with it. I kept my tang in a 3ft tank before I got a 6ft tank. I know experts dont agree with it. I wasn't bound to listening. I dont try to justify it by thinking I know more than experts I just did what I wanted.

 

[andy51632]

I thought about the six foot rule alot and have thought about getting a blue hippo tang for my 90gal DT. This is the fish that I would really love to have.
I can remember looking at a aquarium mag. when I was like 10 years old and the blue tang was the most beatiful fish I had ever seen. In fact it was probally the fish that turn me on to the aquarium hobby.
So yes it is a big deal for me to turn down a $40 tang at this point when I have spent thousands on my setup. The reason I do is not because of the six foot rule per se. It is more that tangs are very prone to disease and are not a easy fish to keep. So I think the six foot rule generally takes beginning aquarist out of keeping tangs. IMO that is a good thing(and I am a beginning saltwater aquarist)
I want to make life for my fish enjoyable. I don't cry when I lose a fish but I do feel bad. They are a pet. You would not buy a cute little puppy dog knowing that you could not care for it, let it die, and then say thats okay I will just buy another one.
These people are not being a-holes when they tell you not to get a tang. They are trying to look out for the animal because they care. No matter what your opinion is I don't think you can blame them for that.

 

[murph]

I believe the issue of cycling demonstrates the point of the original poster perfectly.
I have repeatedly explained the difference between free ammonia and ionic ammonia in this form. Here is a little refresher course as it relates to a seachem product and cut and past from there faq

[hr]
Q: I have another test kit that showed positive for ammonia but the Ammonia Alert™never changed color. Is it still good?
A: Most likely the other test kit was testing for total ammonia. Total ammonia includes both free (NH3) and ionic (NH4+) ammonia. The Ammonia Alert™only measure free ammonia because that is the harmful form. Ionic ammonia cannot harm your fish. However, as pH rises, a greater and greater percentage of the total ammonia will be converted from ionic ammonia to free ammonia, so knowledge of total ammonia is also important.
Q: Does Ammonia Alert properly detect toxic ammonia in the presence of Prime?
A: If the Prime has not complexed with the ammonia yet it will detect it, but it won't detect it if the Prime has already complexed it (which makes sense because when Prime has complexed with the ammonia it is no longer toxic). If you want to know the total ammonia level (free, ionized and complexed) you would need to run a Total Ammonia Test (like with our MultiTest: Free & Total Ammonia

[hr]
Since the bacteria responsible for ammonia conversion do not care what form the ammonia is and the fact that ammonia detxoifiers such as prime and amquel are nearly impossible to overdose, enough can be added at tank setup along with a few hardy specimens to safely cycle a tank without worry of harming any fish. The fish provide a consistent and appropriate ammonia source where dead shrimp or rotting food overproduces ammonia and results in high nitrates at the end of the cycle. So the original poster is correct and fish cycled tanks will result in better overall water chemistry and a more stable water chemistry in general as other specimens are added to the tank.
Unfortunately it has been repeated over and over how cycling with fish is "torture" or "cruelty to animals" which is compete rubbish and flies in the face of scientific fact. It can safely be done and was done for years when the hobby's core was more scientific minded group.
In the words of the Clinton administration; "get it repeated enough in the press and eventually the public will accept it as fact"

 

[jamparty]

i love you murph

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Murph
...Since the bacteria responsible for ammonia conversion do not care what form the ammonia is and the fact that ammonia detxoifiers such as prime and amquel are nearly impossible to overdose, enough can be added at tank setup along with a few hardy specimens to safely cycle a tank without worry of harming any fish. The fish provide a consistent and appropriate ammonia source where dead shrimp or rotting food overproduces ammonia and results in high nitrates at the end of the cycle. So the original poster is correct and fish cycled tanks will result in better overall water chemistry and a more stable water chemistry in general as other specimens are added to the tank.
Unfortunately it has been repeated over and over how cycling with fish is "torture" or "cruelty to animals" which is compete rubbish and flies in the face of scientific fact. It can safely be done and was done for years when the hobby's core was more scientific minded group.
In the words of the Clinton administration; "get it repeated enough in the press and eventually the public will accept it as fact"
Murph, you are overlooking a bit..
First off, how often do people add "Prime" or other ammonia fixing chemicals to their tanks to go with the Damsels? Few... read the posts on here time and time again where people say they added damsels to cycle. They NEVER mention an ammonia binding chemical to go with it. Furthermore, why waste money on a bottle of chemicals?
Second, your idea that fish add a consistent source of ammonia is flawed. You have to feed the fish. Some of that food will go to waste AND you have fish producing waste. End result will be more Nitrates, not less. You then leaped to the conclusion that this proves the water chemistry is more stable. Again, that is incorrect. Not to mention your way leaves you with a tank full of Prime. I haven't studied the residual effects but I'm a big fan of the "don't add if you can't test for it" methodology. How you can have a bunch of Prime in a tank and say the water is more stable and of higher water quality escapes me.
Cycling with Damsels is a cruel and outdated practice. I've touched on the ammonia issue so let's move on. The fact is, we all know that Damsels are woefully unsuited for the majority of aquarium setups. Most get big, mean and territorial. The ones that survive cause issues with new additions.
Murph, what scientific facts are we leaving out?

 

[larryndana]

thanks 1journeyman, i couldn't have said it better.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Murph
The fish provide a consistent and appropriate ammonia source where dead shrimp or rotting food overproduces ammonia and results in high nitrates at the end of the cycle.
well as per your own words the bacteria doesn't care what the ammonia is. now its pretty easy to avoid over producing ammonia by watching your levels and removing the shrimp when the appropriate level is reached. at no risk to the fish.
may I ask how food will over produce ammonia? I mean you feed the fish, the fish processes the food, poos it out, same amount of ammonia is generated in the end whether the fish eats it or not. the only way I can see the food over producing ammonia is by over feeding which you could easily do while cycling with a fish. I would suggest some one would actually be more prone to it because they are actually feeding something instead of an empty tank which doesn't have the same draw for the urge to feed it just a little more.
to me its simple economics .39c shrimp OR 3.99 damsel 9.99 bottle of amquel, Oops missed a dose of amquell another 3.99 fish. its less of a risk, and just as effective to use a shrimp.
Now the original poster also said a more biologically sound bacteria.... HUH? this in my opinion is pure nonsensical whimsy, though much of what he states is relatively accurate, that statement is pure bunk. the bacteria is the same no matter what the ammonia source is, you can use straight pure ammonia if you like, the bacteria is going to develop the same and at the same rate. the is no actual benefit to cycling with a damsel Unless you want a damsel in your tank forever, otherwise your going to have to catch it. hes asking for quotes of fact showing tangs should have at least a 6 foot tank, WHERE on earth or what mad scientist concocted the rule the bacteria is better when you use a fish? I would love to see some research to back that one up.

Now as for the six foot rule of thumb for tangs. I consider a six foot tank the minimum size tank a tang can be kept relatively happy for the duration of its life. I agree a 12 foot tank rule of thumb would be better. sure you can keep a smaller tang in a 4' tank but its going to outgrow it. I agree the overall footprint of the tank matters but really have you ever seen a six foot tank that's only a foot wide? not usually. tangs can cruise a quarter mile of reef in no time I think the 6 foot rule of thumb is bare minimum. tangs are free swimmers IMO a 20foot tank is pretty good for them.
Now of course this is all just my opinions and my views from my experiences reef keeping. I am in no stretch of the imagination a scientist, but you see enough damsels die from improper cycling and why on earth would you recommend it? I will recommend the safer route every time. ESPESCIALLY to the inexperienced.

 

[jonthefishguy]

Generally people who dont know what they are talking about seem to have issue after issue and their tanks look like public toilet bowls. Dont take advice from people without seeing what their aquarium looks like. They could be recreating the bottom of the Hudson river.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by jonthefishguy
Generally people who dont know what they are talking about seem to have issue after issue and their tanks look like toilet bowls. Dont take advice from people without seeing what their aquarium looks like. They could be recreating the a bottom of the Hudson river.

 

[larryndana]

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by reefkprZ
Now the original poster also said a more biologically sound bacteria.... HUH? this in my opinion is pure nonsensical whimsy, though much of what he states is relatively accurate, that statement is pure bunk. the bacteria is the same no matter what the ammonia source is, you can use straight pure ammonia if you like, the bacteria is going to develop the same and at the same rate. the is no actual benefit to cycling with a damsel Unless you want a damsel in your tank forever, otherwise your going to have to catch it. hes asking for quotes of fact showing tangs should have at least a 6 foot tank, WHERE on earth or what mad scientist concocted the rule the bacteria is better when you use a fish? I would love to see some research to back that one up.

Let me explain. When you ghost feed and use liverock to cycle, in my experience, you get a "lighter" cycle. Typically these methods produce less of a spike and produce less beneficial bacteria. Now, depending on how much food is actually used, this cycle may be sufficient to support fish, or it may not be... this is the difficulty. With damsels, the tank becomes established with the fish waste already being produced. It is easier to know that the cycle has produced enough bacteria to support livestock.
Also, regarding the claim that damsels will die unless the amquel is used... my guess is that you haven't seen that many tanks cycled with damsels. The ones that I have seen have been just fine.
And please don't go the "happy" fish route. One question, in this hobby, how do you know if a fish is happy? Answer: the fish behaves normally, eats well, is not discolored and survives. If you have another way to measure a fish's happinness, please let me know. Damsels are hardy enough to adapt to a cycle without any long-term or short-term problems. IMO, those "your fish are sad, that's cruel, my fish smile all the time" arguments are really just wishful thinking, (unless you're Dr. Doolittle for fish).

 

[myreef05]

Those people that cycle with damsels probably still use Underground Filters too, since that is the time frame mentality of cycling with fish.
here is my take on the issues:
1. if you have to ask what is best for a Tang; YOU ARE NOT READY for one
2. There are certanly MORE threads started because "my tang doesn't look so good", than "Wow!, My Tang is doing great in a 2o gallon".
To each his own. There will always be the ones that intentionally stir up trouble on here and again, we have witnessed it.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by myreef05
Those people that cycle with damsels probably still use Underground Filters too, since that is the time frame mentality of cycling with fish.
here is my take on the issues:
1. if you have to ask what is best for a Tang; YOU ARE NOT READY for one
2. There are certanly MORE threads started because "my tang doesn't look so good", than "Wow!, My Tang is doing great in a 2o gallon".
To each his own. There will always be the ones that intentionally stir up trouble on here and again, we have witnessed it.

Aaah... the art of debate is lost on this soul. But that point about a tang in a 20 gallon... whew, that's a brain buster isn't it?

 

[1journeyman]

Crimzy I think you are factually wrong on multiple fronts here.
First off, how can ammonia be toxic to fish except for damsels? Why is it that damsels often die during cycling? Again read the threads on here... often you'll see "I got 6 damsels, 3 of them died..." kind of posts. Unless you are performing microscopic inspections of the gills and other internal organs of surviving damsels you can't say there are no long term issues. Ammonia is toxic.
"lighter" cycles don't really make sense. The bacteria must have food to survive. As you increase the ammonia source the bacteria increases. Lower the ammonia source and the bacteria begins to die off.
All of that is irrelevant, however, if you propose to treat ammonia with Amquel.

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by crimzy
Also, regarding the claim that damsels will die unless the amquel is used... my guess is that you haven't seen that many tanks cycled with damsels. The ones that I have seen have been just fine.
I never said a fish is gauranteed to die if you dont use amquel. but one ammonia spike or over feeding and the fish does stand a chance of dying. Or at best an ammonia burn. sure you can live through a 30% chemical burn on your body but do you want to? I dont want to risk putting an animal through it.
there is one gaurtanteed way to not kill a fish during a cycle dont use a fish. sure many damsels live through cycling because they are hearty and resilient, thats why they were used for so long. but if your ghost feeding the same amount as you would feed the damsel you get the exact same amount of bacteria, there is no way having a fish makes better or more bacteria, its just not possible.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
"lighter" cycles don't really make sense. The bacteria must have food to survive. As you increase the ammonia source the bacteria increases. Lower the ammonia source and the bacteria begins to die off.
This is my point... the severity of the cycle depends upon the amount of feeding and die off from lr. Most people that I have seen do not know enough to create a good cycle (ie. enough bacteria). This is why there are so many threads like, "I'm not sure if my tank is cycling or not, it shows XXX small amount of ammonia". When these people try to add livestock, they are going to be in for some poor results.

 

[1journeyman]

Not if they stock slowly.
The point though, Crimzy, is this: Either way you do it you're going to have the potential of a quick spike in ammonia.
If you have 3 damsels in a tank and add a fish your bacteria is now processing 25% more ammonia.
If you lightly cycle a tank and add a fish your bacteria is also now processing more ammonia.
The end result is the same. Either way your bacteria present is forced to reproduce rapidly to compensate. Now, the argument could be made that in a tank with 3 damsels there might be more bacteria which can reproduce more rapidly. Imo, however, that's not a legitimate occurrence. I've cured a lot of live rock. It produced a lot more waste then any school of damsels.
You're failing to address 2 issues here:
1. What becomes of the damsels
2. Does a cycle really matter if you are using a product like Prime

 

[reefkprz]

I ususally reccomend a lighter cycle especially when using LR because more of your microfauna survives the cycle and you end up with a more biodiverse tank.wich in the end the more biodiverse your tank is the healthier it can be, or rather more self reliant because you still have all the critters you started with. 0.5 is the highest I let my cycles go for ammonia. there is no drawback what so ever to taking it slow, building up you bacteria at amoderate rate only adding one fish at a time with a couple weeks in between them to allow your bacterial colonies to expand with your livestock. it sound like your saying that once you cycle with a damsel you can throw all the fish in you want because you used a fish... not true, I understand that this is not even what you are implying but to a begginner it could easily be construed that way. and of course misconception is what your trying to debunk with this thread.

 

[jonthefishguy]

I Like Pizza!!!