Continuous water changes

[tur4k]

Is anyone doing continuous water changes? I do weekly large water changes on my mixed reef. I don't really mind doing the work, but I feel that it stresses out my livestock when I pump out 30% of the water and pump in fresh NSW. I've been pondering the idea of setting up a continuous exchange of water using a litermeter 3 dosing pump to match input and output.

Before doing any of this I'm going to add an Apex controller. I think it would be a good idea to use a conductivity probe to shutoff the water exchange if the conductivity (salinity) drops below a certain threshold. I would also want to link it to float switches to shut it down if the water in my sump rises too much. A float switch in my "Clean Water" storage tank would also be a good idea.

Can you think of any other safeguards?

 

[mr llimpid]

I have a friend doing this idea but he went a little further. He has a monitoring system that measure salinity, ammonia, PH, temp. and a few other things. The reason I bring this up that a normal top off system will not work with your set up. You will get evaporation but you will never add fresh water do to the dosing salt water all the time, eventually your salinity will go out of whack. His system actually shuts of salt water and adds fresh when the salinity goes to high. He has an over flow in his sump to an open site drain. He drips drips both salt and fresh water into the sump. He also mixes his salt water in a different container and when it reaches the proper salinity adds that to the change water container.

 

[phixer]

Thats a pretty clever idea. I dont know if I would place that much reliance in an automated system though.

This is probably a dumb question but why dont folks just do more to limit evaporation by keeping the lids on, it it because of O2 exchange?

 

[2quills]

I haven't seen anyone around this site doing it yet but I've pondered the idea of continuous water change. I'm hesitant to rely on automation though. Instead I'm probably going to start doing daily changes with pumps set up on switches. Flip a switch to pump water out and then another to pump clean water in. Takes maybe a minute to change out 5 gallons and you're done. 5 gallons a day on my system would be about 100% change a month. Considering trying this route and then see if any dosing is even required.

 

[phixer]

Thats a good idea. Do you think it would be more or less stressful on the livestock that way? Im wondering as long as the water parameters are the same for the new water then the undetectable miniscule changes in water chemistry wouldnt really matter as opposed to an abrupt 25% water change.

Then again you may have smaller changes but more frequently which make keep them stressed out? I really dont know what would be better. But I think your right in that less if any dosing would be required.

 

[2quills]

Thats a good idea.  Do you think it would be more or less stressful on the livestock that way?    Im wondering as long as the water parameters are the same for the new water then the undetectable miniscule changes in water chemistry wouldnt really matter as opposed to an abrupt 25%  water change.  
Then again you may have smaller changes but more frequently which make keep them stressed out?  I really dont know what would be better. But I think your right in that less if any dosing would be required.
In theory it would seem to be less stressful. A 3-3.5% change a day is pretty small so even if there was a slight imbalance in chemistry or temperature it would have a miniscule effect on the system vs a large imbalance of water dumped right in I would think.
That's pretty much how I change water now but I don't have permanent pumps set up yet. I do changes through the return chamber in my sump while I leave everything running. So it's pumped and mixed in the chamber before it gets pushed through the display.
You could slow it down even more by using small pumps and extending the time it takes to pump x amount of clean water in. The continuous change processes that I've read about before we're like a 24/7 type of idea.

 

[snakeblitz33]

I'd definitely be checking the salinity every day or every other day to make sure it's not being thrown off. A salinity probe is extremely expensive - but if you want automation without worry, I would definitely consider one.

 

[ifirefight]

In theory it could work..At one point I was losing 3 gallons a day in my 130 reef,due to evaporation...but you would have to know how much water you lost per day due to evaporation and how much your going to pump out and pump back in....seems very confusining....if the water changed out and back in were in a very small time window,it should not be a problem....as long as this is not fully automated or if you have an ATO system.As soon as my level in the sump drops an 1/8 inch...my ATO kicks in to refill...so that would be a problem for what you are trying to do....

so..if it were me.. and it were ALL automated....
turn off auto top off at 1;00
turn on pump to take out X amount of water from tank at 1;05
turn off that pump after desired water removed...lets say 1;09
turn on pump to replace water removed..1;11
turn off pump when tank level is correct..1;14
turn back on ATO 1;16

Great theory...WAY,WAY to much that could go wrong IMHO...

 

[acrylic51]

Thats why I bought the Litemeter III to do continous water changes... the theory more behind the continous water change is that its done over a course of hours or the whole day vs. all at one time.... Yes it would reduce stress if done gradually over time due to the tank inhabitants not realizing any changes as long as the new water matches the tank parameters.
I'm not so sure I follow the logic or thinking totally behind the salinity creeping. Yes it's possible but you are replace "X" amount of water with the same amount going back in. In conjunction you would run an ATO at the same time to combat the evaporation. The Litemeter III and a couple others allow you to add these featuresto your setup. There is a guy on RC off the top off my head his screen name is something like Slief and he emoloys a contious water change system using the Genesis system nut was using the Litemeter III previously and has no issue with salinity creep.

 

[2quills]

I mix a bach up on the weekends, test it twice, once its ready I do small changes through out the week. If you keep up with evap than there should be no salinity ceep. Besides, it happens so slowly you'd have plenty of time to notice unless you just don't ever check your water.
I'm not worried about stress from small but frequent changes. I've read numerous info on salinity changes that occur daily on natural reefs. I don't freak out about it so much anymore.

 

[tur4k]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533106
I'm not so sure I follow the logic or thinking totally behind the salinity creeping.

My concern is the input pump and output pump getting out of balance. The sump would overflow if input is greater than output. Hence the float switch in the sump to shut off the water exchange if the water level gets too high in the sump. The ATO would be making up the difference with RO if the output was greater than the input. This is why I want to use a conductivity probe to monitor salinity and shutdown the exchange if the salinity starts to drop.

I envision having a brute garbage can in my garage that I fill/top off with NSW on the weekend. Then having the litermeter running continuously. Pumping around four gallons per day into my sump. An equal amount would simultaneously be pumped from my sump to my washing machine drain.

Totally automated with an Apex controller keeping an eye on everything in case something goes wrong. I'm just trying to think of everything that could go wrong and the best safe guards to put in place to prevent them.

EDIT:
I guess the salinity could creep upwards if the input was greater than output as well. In this case the NSW could be making up for evaporation and the ATO would never kick on. I guess this is another thing that I would want to keep an eye on.

 

[2quills]

Seems like a lot to concern yourself with for something that's suppost to make life easier.

 

[tur4k]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533160
Seems like a lot to concern yourself with for something that's suppost to make life easier.

Really? I wouldn't really need to concern my self with anything once the Apex controller is programmed. The controller would monitor water levels and salinity. It would turn off the exchange pumps and send me an email/text message if anything went wrong. My only concern would be topping off the "clean" saltwater storage tank. My purpose with this thread was to try to identify what could go wrong in order to put in place safeguards.

The main purpose of this isn't really to make my life easier. I'm still going to have to lug NSW from my LFS. The purpose is to lessen the impact of water changes. In theory I should be able to change out greater volumes of water with less negative impact to the system.


EDIT:
Plus this gives me a good excuse to add a Neptune Systems AquaController Apex.

 

[2quills]

Not knocking the idea at all, Turk just the notion that setting up a small network of sensors and valves tied in to a computer makes it all simpler and no worries.
Factoring cost and trustworthyness of the equipment in some situations may not be worth it for all cases but it's a cool idea and may benefit someone who's gone a lot.
Like I said, my idea is flip a couple of switches and be all done it barely a moments time but it works for me and my situation.
I still enjoy following others builds and ideas though.

 

[tur4k]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533178
Not knocking the idea at all, Turk just the notion that setting up a small network of sensors and valves tied in to a computer makes it all simpler and no worries.
Factoring cost and trustworthyness of the equipment in some situations may not be worth it for all cases but it's a cool idea and may benefit someone who's gone a lot.
Like I said, my idea is flip a couple of switches and be all done it barely a moments time but it works for me and my situation.
I still enjoy following others builds and ideas though.

I get you. Sensors need to be calibrated. Float switches stick. Adding complexity increases the chances of something going wrong. I understand and agree with this sentiment. The actual mechanics of what I'm proposing are rather simple though. Two matched dosing pumps (litermeter 3 with an optional remote pump) running continuously exchanging a small amount of water. That's it. That's all that I really need. All of the sensors and probes are just for peace of mind. Fancy toys for me to play with.

I want to get the controller anyway. I think that there are a LOT of benefits in having a controller. It will be cool having my temp, PH, Salinity graphed out. It will be cool to be able to turn off my skimmer with my phone. I can have a kalk doser turnoff automatically if the PH gets too high. I can have the lights shut off if the temp gets too high. There are just endless possibilities...

 

[mr llimpid]

I want to know is which fish gets the remote?

 

[ifirefight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tur4k http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533182

I get you. Sensors need to be calibrated. Float switches stick. Adding complexity increases the chances of something going wrong... There are just endless possibilities...
Here in lies the problem.....Great concept,dont get me wrong...but like I said before..way to many things that can malfunction..keep it simple if possible..I stress out about going out of town for a few weeks...cant imagine having to worry about daily/hourly water changes....

 

[tur4k]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ifirefight http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533190
Here in lies the problem.....Great concept,dont get me wrong...but like I said before..way to many things that can malfunction..keep it simple if possible..I stress out about going out of town for a few weeks...cant imagine having to worry about daily/hourly water changes....

I disagree that there are way too many things that can malfunction with my proposal. All of the probes/switches/sensors are just safeguards. Take those out of the equation and I'm just running dosing pumps. Lots of us run dosing pumps. Most of us make use of an auto top off system that relies on float switches. I'm talking about less than 5% of my total volume spread out over 24 hours. This actually seems safer then my JBJ ATO system.

 

[phixer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ifirefight http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533190
Quote:
Originally Posted by tur4k http:///t/396486/continuous-water-changes#post_3533182

I get you. Sensors need to be calibrated. Float switches stick. Adding complexity increases the chances of something going wrong... There are just endless possibilities...
Here in lies the problem.....Great concept,dont get me wrong...but like I said before..way to many things that can malfunction..keep it simple if possible..I stress out about going out of town for a few weeks...cant imagine having to worry about daily/hourly water changes....

I would agree, greater complexity diminishes reliability. I used to work on aircraft and UAVs. Constantly breaking, it's unending, they are down more than they are up. If a car broke down as much as those things do the MFG would be out of business faster than Yugo. It seems that in our pursuit of a better way often we over task the capabilities of technology. Works a few times but cannot be trusted without constant human intervention. IMHO in many ways technology and our overreliance upon it (especially computers) has created a dependency and has weakened us as a society.

 

[ifirefight]

Quote:
Lots of us run dosing pumps. Most of us make use of an auto top off system that relies on float switches. I'm talking about less than 5% of my total volume spread out over 24 hours. This actually seems safer then my JBJ ATO system.
Yes,I also run ATO,dosing pumps,timers for lights,sensors for chiller....and I have had a problem with EVERYONE of those I just listed at one time or another..and believe me,I take great care of my equipment,it does not malfunction due to neglect..Do get me wrong,they are great when they work,but obviously not so much when they dont..I suppose you need to weigh the risk vs reward and judge for yourself..