Copper experiment

J

jessicarabit

Guest
Craig, I am totally with you on the level of treatments. I just had scratching & some brown/tan spots on a tang that didn't make it. The scratching spread to my regal <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" /> , then my coral beauty <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" /> & to my yellow tang. I quickly look into the copper, fw dip for immediate relief of scratching (work) & hyposalinity. Since I was gonna do the dip & take them out, I thought it best to treat in q-tank (only qvc, biological filter & some powerheads).
I went all over looking for a copper treatment (45 min drive) & had to come back to my local LFS for test (Aquarium Systems 4 both) for 5 days I 'treated", tested & logged the event. I never got to the level it said I needed. So after loosing my biologic & giving up on the copper, I decided to put them back in the main where all levels were perfect (Terry B this also applies to the question u ask in my post on my kh & ph...15=1.015). I know how Terry & Beth feel on the green-x, but after I contacted both LFS & reading how it wasn't a toxic treatment (I still am confuse on why they would make such a claim & stores stand by it), I continued treating with it in my main tank with LR & no copper. I had drop the salinity from 17 in Q-tank to 15 in main (I didn't acclimate...I hate myself now) & the 1st day they looked fine. Yesterday all were acting funny (sides mandarin) & then my yellow went & found my angel in her LR cave :( today. I still am confused, but I tallied all the advice to the fact that hypo seems the best (oh, q-tank any new arrivals) & I'll never use copper again. I think Im gonna loose my percs soon,. but I don't know what to do now the green-x is in the main??
 
seaguru

seaguru

Member
Hello Beth, Anthem and Terry B,
Your advise is much respected/appreciated... if folks would simply look at your profiles and see how many years of experience is giving the advice they might get the picture...
Anyway, had 2 questions about salinity... what is the minimum I can keep starfish/crabs/snails at in my main tank. (don't want to loose my cleanup crew) This is not a hyposalinity issue.
Now if I quarantine using OST/hyposalinity can I also use my usual (q) meds: copper and antibacterial such as maricyn-two. I really try to take advantage of the (q) environment and hit as many possible ailments I can all at once!
Also I usually use Nitromax-Marine as a backup to my already cycled bio-ball homemade filter (put a hole and pvc piping in a Coralife Salt bucket w/improvised drain tray) in addition to the meds. Works great because I always start this q-tank filter with bio-balls from one of the sumps from my aged display tank system. (I know I'm getting carried away)... so back to my question can I use OST with these other therapys?
Thanks, Joe.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
You can use any medication with OST, however, I’m not sure exactly why you want to. Are you blasting your QT with medication on fish “just in case” they are sick? If so, this is not advisable. First off, many parasitic medications, such as copper and formalin, are toxic substances. They are toxic to fish, just as they are to parasites [only less so for fish]. So why expose fish to toxins when they don’t really need it? That is comparable to treating a healthy person with chemotherapy just in case they might get cancer. Do you see the logic, or illogic of doing that?
In the case of antibiotics, it too should be used only as indicated for infection. Using the analogy of humans again, why do you think that the pharmaceutical companies are coming up with new [and more potent] antibiotics all the time? It is because humans use antibiotic treatments every time they sneeze, thus rending the effectiveness of drugs [like penicillin] which was once an extremely potent “miracle” drug, nearly useless in modern times. New strains of bacterium develop immunities to the medication treatments and even develop stronger strains of bacteria due to the exposure or overexposure to antibiotics. The same is true for fish bacterial infections. Only in the case of fish, you don’t have pharmaceutical companies clamoring to develop new fish antibiotics, thus, you are limited to a very few effective treatments for marine bacterial diseases. The moral here is to use antibiotics prudently and only as needed for real diseases that are effected by the antibiotic [and use the med in appropriate dosages for the treatment duration—elsewise, you also have the same problem with bacterium developing resistance to the medications].
Inverts do not tolerate hyposaline conditions and need to be maintained within the parameters of standard aquaria specific gravity—though crabs have a bit more tolerance to variances in this regard, but not to the extent encountered by OST conditions.
I always try to make the distinction between Quarantine Tank and Hospital Tank. The QT is for housing newly acquired fish for a period of time before introducing the specimens to the main display tank. Its purpose is to observe fish for health and to determine if treatment for diseases is necessary. Its use keeps a healthy tank from being exposed to diseases and affords the hobbyist with easy access to treat fish that become sick before introducing fish into the main system. The hospital tank is for fish that are sick. In this setup, you use medications and other treatments to cure diseases. Try not to equate the QT as a hospital; IMO, it is not. Hospital tanks that have been used to treat sick fish should be broken down and disinfected prior to using it as a QT.
Jess, I’m not sure I’m following what the problem is with your fish. How about some more details about the brown/tan spots?
I don’t think any of the mods here have said outright that some of the new “cure all” treatments are toxic but there are many unknowns about them, particularly when applying these “treatments” to reef tanks. Our position here is that, if you are going to be in this hobby, you must be prepared to take measures to keep your tank healthy. The best way, and the cheapest way to do this, is QT. QT’s should be your first equipment purchase in this hobby if you plan on having fish. You can put together a QT for considerably less money than a sick fish, or sick tank will cost you...In fact, you can put together a very nice QT for about $50. In many instances, you can just use left over equipment or used equipment. But if you don’t QT, and your tank gets sick, then be prepared to do a hospital tank post haste. There are no in main tank cure all’s. However, the LFS would love to sell you the stuff because its costly and they make a buck, they don’t know any better, and it makes you [temporarily] happy cause you think everything is going to work just by pouring some stuff in your tank.
Anyway, when the “stuff” doesn’t work, Terry, Ed and I will be here to help ya’ll out! [And you get us for free]
:D
 
seaguru

seaguru

Member
Beth,
Thanks again for your prompt/valued advise. Usually the reason I pack such a multi-meds punch in my QT is I tend to Q multiple specimens at once and yes it is more a just in case approach. Thanks to you I will re-evaluate the validity of my actions.
Oh and again could you give me a specific number on the low end for inverts. (the specific gravity)since you keep them... what do you keep your reef at?
Joe.
 
craig110768

craig110768

Member
Hi Beth, Anthem, Terry B
I started the Hypo a few days ago. I'm sitting 1.010. I'm only using one Hydro, so to night, I will get another one, so I can compare them. I really should get one of them 100 dollars refract. Maybe next month. ;-)
Anyway. Two days ago, the ick seemed to get worse - I was at about 1.015 then. Last night I brought it down to 1.010, and looked this morning and things seem to be getting better. I will bring down the gravity to 1.009 tonight.
I will let you know the progress. Thanks
Craig
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I keep my tank at 1.023SG at 80 degress, which using hydrometers, really equates to about 1.025 specific gravity at that temp.
Each specimen has their own preference for salinity [depending upon what ocean they come from]. In a mixed tank, maintaining 1.023 is generally a good target.
 
craig110768

craig110768

Member
Thanks for that Beth. I forgot to take into condideration the temp. I keep mine at 78.
I will need to bring it down to 1.011 as far as the *Hydro is concerned*, which would really mean 1.009. Is that correct?
Craig
 
J

jessicarabit

Guest
TERRY, I totally see what & where your going. My damsel (which is like the 'solid' fish in the tank) is now 'bugged' out...eyes & breathing <img src="graemlins//eek.gif" border="0" alt="[eek]" /> I feel so awful!! Just awful!! I did NOT know you said not to use it due to that it was toxic. As I stated in an earlier reply, it says it's not (LIARS) & after the 'advice' from the LFS, I am so so pissed!! I was trying to save them, not kill them. I just drained 50% of the main tank & am hurrying trying to IO some water to save what & if I can...GD why is there no standard?? I feel helpless watching them just float there & I know I worsted this. Like I said this is my VERY FIRST parasite problem!! I will swear to anyone about the Q-tank 4 new arrivals!!
What should I do??? Is the 50% gonna maybe maybe help? What about the staining from the green s**t (luck of the Irish my ass)??
Beth, I don't know what the 'brown/tan' marks ever were? It got them after it started stressing from bullying & it managed to get itself 'stuck'/trapped under some LR....you know those damn tangs & how they lay flat & swim under & through the most unprepared places.
BTW, I did take in consideration your guys experience & knowledge unbought from it. I just wanted to get the optimal procedure & I've never used the boards since this is again my first problem. (I have been a member 4 awhile, but I only looked & ordered things from the site) I will definitely turn to you guys/gals (Beth) for advice...I a such an awful keeper :( Poor babies...
 
jakepilot

jakepilot

Member
does kick-ick work?? is it worth the money?? my koran angel just got ick...what is the best way to treat him?? should i try the hypo in my hospital tank?? how long do i leave the fish in there with the lower salinity level??
 
john f

john f

Member
Ed,
My understanding is hyposalinity does prevent the tomonts from producing active tomites. Copper kills the tomites once they hatch.
Therefore copper does not address the cyst stage but hyposalinity does.
John
 
john f

john f

Member
I wasn't trying to be cute.
Maybe I am understanding this wrong.
Colorni reports that tomonts kept at 14ppt for 48 hours fail to produce tomites. Is this forever? Or just until the tomonts gain favorable conditions for hatching?
I understood it as all tomonts exposed to 14ppt for 48 hours will not EVER produce active tomites.
Is this not what Colorni found?
John
 
tallyho

tallyho

Member
Well, two weeks ago my heniouchus broke out with ich,in order to catch him(150g) i had to remove
all my rock.I put him in my 29gal and started copper.I figured my blue hippo and yellow tang
would most probably come down with it so I added
them to the QT.I wanted to treat all my fish and
hopefully have a zero ick environment.I put my
remaining 5 smaller fish in a 20gal rubbermaid
took the filter from my 150 and set it up
for the rubbermaid(filter is bigger than
tank.I left my inverts in the main for almost a week.After reading the "copper experiment"I
decided to stop the copper and go "hypo"..
My question is..as my 150 show had only inverts
and crustaceans for five at 1.023 and then
no life(except sand) for the next 3 days of which the last day I moved it to 1.009..do I need
to leave it at 1.009 for three more weeks to be
safe or will two weeks like this work...reason
for wanting the week is that I need to get the inverts back in the 150 show at proper salinity
so I can bring the rubbermaid tank down to 1.009.
rgds
 
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