coral good, fish dead

[fulcrum]

I have set up a 14 gal oceanic biocube in my office. 20lbs good fiji lr, rubble in the 2nd chamber, aristone skimmer (more for oxygen really), carbon screen, lighting upgrade to 3X24 from nanotuners.
The tank has been up for almost 6 months. Coralline has taken off and covered most surfaces, I have the following corals which are thriving: ricordia, mushrooms, buttons, sundials (?), pulsing xenia, a small open brain and a small hammer. All have grown and spread considerable since being added. The Brain got slightly damaged on addition to the tank, but all in all it seems to be doing well....color is good but it has receded in one area.
Inverts are doing great. Cleaner shrimp, 2 peppermint shrimp, porcelain crab, cleanup crew of snails and blue legs.
I've been pretty religious with water changes, and the water chemistry is pretty darn ideal <5ppm nitrates, 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, pH 8.1-8.2. The temp is a touch high at 80, but its very steady.
I cant keep a fish alive in the tank. The first two clowns got ich...i tried garlic and kick ich....no luck. Waited 6 weeks. Next two clowns never appeared sick, I just came in one day and found them on top of the sponge in the overflow. Third pair of clowns didnt make it a week. No spots, no strange behavior, just a little labored breathing the day before they died.
Any clues?

 

[spyder78]

you could have clownfish disease in the tank. maybe try a different fish, like a pair of clown gobies or a jawfish.

 

[subielover]

Very strange indeed. Are they dying on a particular day? I have heard of cleaning people coming in and getting chemicals near the tank thus killing the fish. I guess it's a reach, but can't think of too much. How long ago was your last casualty? Do you inspect the bodies for any signs of damage?

 

[whisk]

sounds like bad luck to me, especially them jumping in the back chamber. is there enough oxygen in the water? flow breaking the surface?

 

[fulcrum]

All things I've considered, but keep 'em coming.
I think the oxygen is ok, I'm using an airstone skimmer. Dont know how to get much more oxygen in than that.
Obviously the Ich on the first pair was noticeable. The last two pair never showed any physical signs of distress.
The luck thing crossed my mind, but these pair die on the same day each time. That would have to be some cataclysmically bad luck.
I've been reluctant to add any other type of fish to the tank, because if it survives I'm pretty much stuck with it, and my bioload is maxed. Was really hoping to have a pair of clowns to watch at my desk.
I should note, I have 3 other tanks (92, 130, 29) that are all in tip top shape. The 92 and the 130 both have breeding pairs or false perculas. One pair I have had for 5 years. This fish dying thing is very annoying since I dont think I'm making any rookie errors. The only thing different in this tank is the coral....this is my first reef....anything there send up a red flag?
Does clownfish disease ever run its course in a tank? Is there a wait out period like with Ich?

 

[subielover]

Ok, so the fish are dying on the same day. That could be a hint. What is done around the tank in the days prior? Do you clean your office or does someone else come in? Maybe, if someone else is cleaning, the cleaners are spraying cleaning chemicals too close to the tank. Have you been doing water changes on a particular day? Perhaps that could have something to do with it as well.

 

[kromix]

Originally Posted by subielover
http:///forum/post/2869224
Ok, so the fish are dying on the same day. That could be a hint. What is done around the tank in the days prior? Do you clean your office or does someone else come in? Maybe, if someone else is cleaning, the cleaners are spraying cleaning chemicals too close to the tank. Have you been doing water changes on a particular day? Perhaps that could have something to do with it as well.

Subie, I don't think he means they die every tuesday, I think he means both fish kick the bucket at the same day, whether it be tuesday or friday or sunday, they die together, like romeo and juliets....

 

[fulcrum]

The latter assumption is correct. The fish both die at the same time, not on the same day of the week.
The cleaning staff dont use any chemicals here....they basically take out the trash.....they dont even vacuum unless you specifically request it.
I do a ~30% water changes about once a week to week and half. The second pair of clowns lived through several water changes, so I dont think its that. Since the coral and inverts are doing fine I cant imagine its the water changes.
I do use a premoistened mr clean wipe on my desk after the water changes. I cant imagine the fumes from those develop any appreciable concentration.
The lid on the tank is always down....so even if there was a chemical spray it would never make it into the tank except in vapor form through the light fan.

 

[subielover]

What do you have for water movement? For instance in my Biocube 14, I replaced the way underpowered return pump with a maxijet 900. I also added a koralia 1 on the opposite side for more flow. It could be a case of not enough oxygen in the water.

 

[fulcrum]

I'm using the main pump that came with it, but I have a rio powerhead behind the LR in the tank moving the water pretty well
I could try stepping up the main pump. I dont seem to have any dead spots, and actually have what appears to be good flow in the tank. Soft coral is swaying pretty contstantly.
Think it could be the water turn over?

 

[subielover]

Maybe. No harm in putting a maxijet in place of the return pump. No mods necessary, just remove the one that came with it and replace with the maxijet. Also try pointing the outlet up towards the surface of the water, to break the "film" that sometimes can accumulate there, although I do realize you have a protein skimmer. Maybe it will be as simple as that. Unforunately there is only one way to find out and that is to add another fish

 

[michaelwb]

something has to be causing them stress, what's it like after you leave? what time do you get there and leave? do you have a timer on the lights? do you have enough flow that' it's breaking the surface water (as subie suggested) you need it to be breaking the surface for proper exchange.
Maybe invest in a hydor flo, they do wonders.

 

[fulcrum]

Lights are on a timer. They come on at 8:00 am. I am usually there for at least an hour before they come on. Lights go off at 4:00pm....there is a good amount of ambient light in the room.
I will upgrade the pump and see what happens.
The most frustrating thing is that the inverts (including corals) are doing so well. I thought that was the hard part. If oxygen were off, wouldnt they suffer too?
The tank sits on my desk about 1 foot from an LCD monitor.....any high frequency waves I should worry about?
I have also been adding aquacultured clowns, so the captive envrionment should not be too stressful.

 

[subielover]

What's the temperature of the tank? Does it stay stable even the monitor is on?

 

[spanko]

The first two clowns got ich...i tried garlic and kick ich....no luck. Waited 6 weeks.
Okay we know the problem there.
I just came in one day and found them on top of the sponge in the overflow
Okay we know the problem there. This by the way is IMO a design flaw that Oceanic should fix. The modification here is to extend the false wall upwards so that the fish cannot jump over it into the back chambers. There are a number of fixes like Gutter Guard, Some of the plastic material uses on fresh water tank hoods to extend the hood in the area where it is cut out for the filter tubes etc. The is available at most LFS.
just a little labored breathing the day before they died
This is a bit more perplexing. Labored breathing happens most always prior to death, not saying that labored breathing is a sign of impending death though.
Did all of these fish come from the same store? If so maybe a problem with the store or the batch of fish. Another possibility would be some stray voltage in the tank from a defective pc. of electrical equipment.
I would look at the surface agitation and stray voltage. If all checks out there I agree with Subie, try another pair from a different store and see how that goes.

 

[fulcrum]

temp does not vary outside of 79.5 to 80.1. Thats a touch high for my taste, but its steady.
The monitor puts out negligible heat.
The 2nd pair of fish being found in the overflow actually doesnt solve that mystery, since they were both there on the same day....odds are they didn't BOTH jump. More likely their carcases went through the grating, which I have popped a couple of slats out of to improve flow. Maybe they both swam through at the same time, but I doubt it.
It could be bad luck. Maybe I'll try to extend the false wall, block the grating and see what happens.

 

[subielover]

Also check for stray voltage, like spanko mentioned. You can buy a ground wire that you can put into the tank, they are around $15 bucks I think. I would assume though, that you would notice if you got a little jolt when you put your hands in the tank. Really reaching here, because nothing sounds out of the ordinary.
Have you gotten all the fish from the same vendor? Maybe try a different one.

 

[fulcrum]

Same vendor....same tank system. I cant imagine they are selling disposable clowns. My LFS is actually quite good.
I think I am going to wait until after the holidays to try fish again. I have nice soothing reef to look at until then.