Coraline Algae & CALCIUM question

[sgt__york]

Wanted to find out 2 things re colaline algae (purples; oranges)
I) CORALINE ALGAE
A) Is the best way to promote them simply 1) lighting and 2) calcium of 450+? 3) adding stromium. Is there anything else to help stimulate their growth?
B) When it begins to turn 'white' i assume it's dying off. I have been told when coraline algae dies off - it doesn't emmit ammonia. Is this true? How easy does it take back hold, and regrow where it has died off (or started to)?
I'm at the end of my cycle - have been really stirring the tank up and did a calcium test for the first time (sub 350 - hardly testable). As i've got no corals yet - my primary focus was initial cycle, LR formation and fish. As i begin to get other parameters corrected - i'm now adding calcium. I wanna get an idea for my chances on salvaging the coraline I have on the existing rock.
II) CALCIUM
How do most of you put calcium in your system? What type of levels do you keep? How often do you put calcium in?
When i had my tank years ago - i had a 5gal bucket that i set on a slow drip with Klawkwasher (sp). The LFS told me that was 'old school' and much messier - that now you just add Calcium drops (product by Reef Complete - Seachem).
Thanks for your assistance and info.

 

[y2says]

Another way to help out with coraline growth is to have a powerhead blow across a liverock encrusted with coraline. This will spread it's spores throughout the tank. I had coraline growing in my tank after the first month.

 

[david s]

as far as calcium there are alot of ways reactor i am geting ready to use a kalkwasserreactor if you do not have a big load I recomend bionic its a 2 part system takes care of ph and calcuim and it is easy to use thats what i have been doing considering I am fairly new and want to stay out of trouble lol

 

[nm reef]

To establish coraline algaes I have found that lighting plays a relatively minor role. To explain I have 2 systems....one is a 55 reef with 480 watts of light...the other is a fish only (58) gal and has 100 watts of NO lighting. Both have rapidly growing coraline.
I personally believe that the keys to good coraline growth are in stable levels of calcium/alkalinity/ph...adaquate water circulation...a quality source of coraline....and patience.In time with stable conditions/movement/source then coraline will spread. I have minor die off from time to time....primarily when I do water changes or when I remove water to do maintenance....the coraline does turn white and flake away...but gradually replaces itself after water levels return to normal and new growth takes hold. Its never caused any ammonia in either of my systems.
As your system stabilises and you prepare for corals the levels I'd be concerned with are calcium/alkalinity/ph/temp....there are numerous ways to establish and maintain these levels For me I drip seachem advantage/builder/buffer on a rotating schedule to build desired levels and I drip kalkwasser daily to help maintain established levels.

 

[sgt__york]

wow..thanks for the info reef - hope i get some more quality experience notes. i noticed a lot of the coraline did begin to turn while when i tore the tank up the other day. And i'm sure it's not helping that my Calcium levels are below 350.. What do ppl do for carbonates as well? Hope i continue to get good info on how most ppl add calcium to their tanks.

 

[memnoch]

I use the Kent liquid calcium one capful weekly and also add one teaspoon of Seachem buffer weekly. Seems to keep level fine for my softie reef, everything thriving.

 

[bang guy]

I'm glad someone mentioned Carbonate (ALK). This molecule plays an equal part in building CalciumCarbonate skeleton wether it be Coral, Coralline, Clams, Snails, etc...
I use Kalkwasser which provides Calcium and Carbomate is the exact right proportion (1:2). I'd suggest two part additives like B-Ionic over Calcium only plus Buffer only. The seperate additives are great for boosting one level over the other occationally but they will disrupt the ionic balance over time.
FYI - Strontium is a Calcium Carbonate inhibitor. I have no idea why you would want to dose it if you are trying to promote coralline growth.

 

[sgt__york]

BANG,
Why do they have Stronium inside of Calcium suppliments then?
I picked up some SEACHEM (Reef Complete) Caclium suppliment for my first time around - until I decide how i'm going to permanently handle the Caclium, stronium, magnesium, alk, buffer elements to feed coraline and corals.
Bottle says:
"Reef Complete also includes Magnesium and strontium in the amuonts proportinate to typical utilization ratios (100:5:0.1, CA:MG:SR) This allows one to maintain these two important elements while maintaining calcium"
I now so far, i've had to use NO buffering, and seem to maintain a 8 .2 - 8.4 level - I take it, it's the argonite seaflor shells i'm using as a substrate doing this. But as said earlier, my calcium levels are not even registering (sub 350). I havn't checked ALK levels. I don't have any corals yet - so it's not a sever isssue - but i would like to get the knowledge now - and get these levels corrected for the coraline algae and overall health and stability of the tank.
Can you explain the 'ionic levels' you mentioned plz and the relationship of these elements to that?

 

[frankl15207]

I've also heard and read that Strontium, when used in proper doses, encourages the growth of coralling (In fact, that is what Kent Marine sells it for). From the Kent Marine web site:
Description: Strontium & Molybdenum Supplement provides bio-available strontium for lush growth of purple, pink and green calcareous algaes, snails, hard tube worms and clams. Magnesium is added to make up for deficiencies in some of the newer brands of sea salt mixes. Potassium & molybdenum are added to assist the symbiotic algae growing in coral and other invertebrates tissues. Corals will open more and stay attached to their skeletons better, with regular use. Phosphate & nitrate free! Contains no gluconates, EDTA, or other organics to raise DOC levels, as many competing products do. For best results, Use Kent Kalkwasser Mix, or Concentrated Liquid Calcium first.
However, there is a warning on the bottle that excess usage may cause problems. The warning from the web site:
Considerations for use: Excessive usage may result in rapid strontium compound precipitation and deposits which can possibly be destructive to pumps and other sensitive system equipment and can also deplete system alkalinity (although this is unlikely). This can endanger a stable pH, and pH may fall. Caution is therefore advised, and proper buffering via regularly measuring alkalinity (carbonate hardness or KH), and adjusting with Kent Marine Superbuffer-dKH or Kent Marine Marine Aquarium pH Buffer is absolutely necessary.
Again, it comes down to proper dosage and monitoring. Too much of anything isn't a good thing.
The Seachem Reef Buffer mentioned above increases the Carbonate Alkalinity that you are looking for. The additives mentioned seem to be the ones for the GARF bulletproof reef (http://www.garf.org), although I hate to assume that without NMReef confirming it.

 

[sgt__york]

If i can ask - what do most ppl add as supplimental elements??
BUFFER - as need for proper PH?
Calcium - to maintain 450 (still love to know HOW most ppl do this - ie, drop additives or slow drips, etc)
Stronium
Magnesium
Iodine?? Can anyone elaborate on the benefits and purposes of iodine supplements?
anything else for maintaining good coraline growth, and coral health?
NOTE: I had someone tell me the other day - that running CARBON about 2-3 days a month is VERY healthy for your tank. It was explained that although it removes your trace elements - which is one reason you have to suppliment them (as some ppl don't do water changes enuf - thus adding it thru salt) AND most water changes are not done in a great enuf quantitiy to reestablish desired levels of trace elements (ie, remove all elements then do a 10% water change = very diluted levels) THAT most corals emit a toxic to prevent other corals from getting too close to them. That by removing these toxins with carbon and then reestablishing their trace elements it often creats BURSTS of new growth. Any comment on the validity of this?

 

[y2says]

That sounds very interesting. Any other thoughts on that?

 

[bang guy]

sgt_york - I'm not ignoring your questions. It's a long answer and I don't have the time right now. I'll edit this post tomorrow and give my opinions.
Guy

 

[frankl15207]

I follow the program recommended for the bullet proof reef at GARF (site listed above), but do check the levels. These are the Seachem additives mentioned by NMReef. I had to make some downward adjustments from their recommended levels, but calcium stays in the 420 range, PH rarely fluctuates and alkalinity is a little higher than I would like it to be. I've been using distilled water, but am waiting for an RO unit to arrive.
Iodine (Iodide), is generally supplemented for xenia and to assist shrimp in molting, but the levels on it need to be tested regularly as it can cause problems in higher than normal doses (and the test is a pain). If you aren't prepared to do that, it is better not added as it is in most of the better salt mixes at the correct level.
The natural level of iodide in sea water is very low.
I also do regular weekly 10% water changes.

 

[hondo]

for good coraline algae growth all you really need is 400+ calcium and ALK of around 2.5 - 3.5. after that the small amount in your tank will rapidly grow out and cover eveything (especially anything plastic). Once your water has these two components in the correct amount it will speed things up to point a PH at a rock with corraline on it to help spread the spores.
For getting your levels correct there are a number of products to numerous to mention and most if not all work to some degree so it's really preference. I personally use Kent turbo calcium to raise calsium and kent superbuffer raise the alk and then maintain the level once established with Kalwasser drip.
For other supplements save your money unless you are not doing any water changes at all then you may want to does some trace minerals in about 1/2 to 1/4 of the recomended dosage (remember they sell the stuff so of course they tell you to use a significant amount).
as for carbon well some will say not to, some will say do it all the time, and some (like me) beleive in running carbon 2 - 5 days each month to help polish the water.

 

[sgt__york]

hondo..
if you do it 2-5 days a month.. do you find that you get coral growth bursts at all?? The primary guy at the LFS (said to be in the hobby abouta 18yrs) said it's suppose to help remove toxins secreted by corals which stunt growth in other corals (and it'self at times). Said when it secretes these, then finds good water quality (by carbon cleaning then replacing trace elements) the corals often growth in a burst of fresh growth. Just wondering if you have observed this, since you seem to follow that procedure (even if for other reasons) - or if you've ever looked for it.

 

[bang guy]

Sgt_York - These are great questions but nobody has a right answer for them yet...
I have some opinions that are partly based on fact, partly based on intuition. The two are so intermingled that all I can say is that these are my opinions.
"If i can ask - what do most ppl add as supplimental elements?? "
I dose Kalkwasser 24/7 for all topoff. Kalkwassers adds Calcium and Carbonate in the exact ratio required to build Coral skeleton (1:2). Occationally I will use the appropriate part of B-Ionic if the CA/ALK balance is a little out of balance. For a good article on balances Ca/ALK see this link ---> http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a...io/default.asp
That is all I add. A couple decades ago I used to use all the latest and greatest additives. I slowly figured out (I'm hard-headed) that none of them helped at all and some of them actually hurt.
"BUFFER - as need for proper PH? "
Buffer is a misnomer IMO. It adds Alkalinity. This does not directly affect the PH it just makes it more stable in adverse conditions. See the above article for ALK Buffer = ALK
"Calcium - to maintain 450 (still love to know HOW most ppl do this - ie, drop additives or slow drips, etc) "
NSW cas a Ca content of 420ppm. In actuality any supersaturated solution is fine (>350). The reason I maintain my Ca above 400 is so I can have a reasonable ALK (see above article). For Coral skeleton building Ca must be in a supersaturated condition with Carbonate available. There is no advantage of having a Ca level of 500 over having a level of 450. I just drip limewater (Kalkwasser) to maintain about 420ppm.
"Stronium"
I hit on Strontium in an earlier post. It's a NSW trace element and salt mixes provide more than enough. Too much will inhibit Coral skeleton building.
"Magnesium"
A LOT of Mg is required to maintain adequate Ca levels. It binds with the Carbonate and prevents the Ca from precipitating out of solution. It is consumed very slowly and water changes will normally provide plenty. The only time I would suggest adding Mg is if you can't figure out why Ca will not get above 400ppm. A temporary switch to B-Ionic for Ca and ALK will add plenty of Mg for me.
"Iodine?? Can anyone elaborate on the benefits and purposes of iodine supplements? "
A recent study highlighted a few areas in regards to Io. It showed that levels of Iodine above NSW levels are toxic. NSW levels are around 0.04 - 0.06 ppm. It was discovered that the average reef aquarium averaged a level of 0.5ppm. This is TEN TIMES the level in NSW.
I've seen studies that show plenty of Iodine is added through food and water changes. So much so that we should be more concerned about how to get rid of it.
I've heard the arguements about Shrimp molts and Xenia.
I've not seen one piece of evidence that Xenia uses Iodine for anything. My Xenia is doing very well without it... too well
http://guynterry.com/reef/coral/xenia020211.jpg
The truth about Shrimp is that even NSW levels are toxic to shrimp. They sequester it in their shells and molt periodically to get rid of it. If you add too much the stress can cause them to molt prematurely and be missing claws, legs, antenna, or just die.>
Here are the results of the study: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.htm
Granted, this is just one study, but keep in mind that the average hobbiest test kit for Iodine is accurate down to 0.5ppm. In other words the reading could be way under actual Io levels, right on, or WAY high.
"anything else for maintaining good coraline growth, and coral health? "
Good water flow and I believe a DSB+refugium helps immensely.
"NOTE: I had someone tell me the other day - that running CARBON about 2-3 days a month is VERY healthy for your tank. It was explained that although it removes your trace elements - which is one reason you have to suppliment them (as some ppl don't do water changes enuf - thus adding it thru salt) AND most water changes are not done in a great enuf quantitiy to reestablish desired levels of trace elements (ie, remove all elements then do a 10% water change = very diluted levels) THAT most corals emit a toxic to prevent other corals from getting too close to them. That by removing these toxins with carbon and then reestablishing their trace elements it often creats BURSTS of new growth. Any comment on the validity of this?"
Leather corals are notorious for producing poisons in the battle for space. I believe carbon run for 5 hours a month will remove enough to prevent problems. I also believe a protein skimmer will accomplish the same feat when run 24/7. I keep a bag of carbon around just in case there's some type of chemical contamination. I used to use it quite a bit but I've not noticed any differences. If the water has a yellow tinge I'll run it for a few hours and that usually get rid of it. I've seen more than one study showing that after 2 or 3 days in the water all of the pores in the carbon are 100% blocked and it can not longer function.