Coraline & Cloudy Water Question

[miamiscoobaguy]

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I have some grayish blackish material growing on my Coraline rock that's spread across my sand bed as well. I think it's brush algae from the red algae family from what I've researched. The rock doesn't smell bad like die off either. Would an invertebrate like a crab or star take care of it? What do you think it is? Also, recently I've had cloudy water from a bacterial bloom. I believe it to be bacterial because I used kent pro clear which eliminates cloudiness from imbalanced water & did nothing. Will it go away on it's own? I have a 10 gallon with live aragonite sand, & fully cured live Coraline rock from fiji. I'm using a regular hang on the back filter (just took out the bio media) & water from the lfs. All my parameters are were they should (ph, kh, cal, mag, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, & ammonia). I have one false percula.

 

[tthemadd1]

How old is the tank?
Do you have any type of media in the hang on back?
Have you research Cyanobacteria?
What exactly are the test readings?

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

Three weeks & three days old. I have the carbon filter.
I recently took out the bio media like 1/2 week ago & I have a bag of phosban from three little fishies that's is tightly placed in their.
I haven't.
This was on 5/25/13. I'm going to test soon again. PH 8.0, ammonia 0, nitrate 0, KH 10 dkh, calcium 420 mgl, phosphate 0, magnesium 1365 mgl, salinity 32 & 3/4.

 

[tthemadd1]

1. Stop adding chemicals.
2. More LR. Maybe twice what is in the tank
3. Are you adding calcium or buffer?
4. Feed only as much as your fish eats. Remember they will just keep eating so maybe feed less.
5. Look for sand sifting snails. Nassarius (sp)
This happens and with small tanks there is less room for error. Do some water changes and stop adding chemicals.

 

[flower]

Hi,
Welcome to the site!
The tank is cloudy because there isn't enough oxygen, the fish is skimming the top for air...you need a power head...a couple of nano ones would be best. The wave is the very life of the ocean, and your saltwater tank. Saltwater has less oxygen then fresh water. The surface should be moving not flat as glass.
Do very small water changes once a week to keep up the parameters, and indeed STOP adding chemicals. You need better media (filter floss) and more rock. Oh...if you put a backing on that tank it would look 100Xs better.

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tthemadd1 http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522628
1. Stop adding chemicals.
2. More LR. Maybe twice what is in the tank
3. Are you adding calcium or buffer?
4. Feed only as much as your fish eats. Remember they will just keep eating so maybe feed less.
5. Look for sand sifting snails. Nassarius (sp)
This happens and with small tanks there is less room for error. Do some water changes and stop adding chemicals.
1.Yea, that chemical called pro clear was just to test if it was a chemical imbalance. It's not... now I know for sure that it's a bacterial bloom from cycling. It doesn't harm the fish or my parameters either.
I'm planning to add more LR in the near future but that's not really a requirement though.
2.No, you don't have to in a fowler. Either way though, hang on the back filters don't remove calcium the way protein skimmers do so I can't just add calcium. I have to first test to see how much has been depleted that a water change couldn't handle & then add accordingly.
3.I feed my clown once a day or every other day 2-3 pellets. That' a good amount. He eats it all. I have held back a little because of the bloom though.
4.Yea, I guess I'll just get an invertebrate to deal with the detritus material at the bottom.
5.Yea, I don't just add chemicals willy nilly lol. I have done water changes & it improved.
Thanks anyways.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522629
Hi,
Welcome to the site!
The tank is cloudy because there isn't enough oxygen, the fish is skimming the top for air...you need a power head...a couple of nano ones would be best. The wave is the very life of the ocean, and your saltwater tank. Saltwater has less oxygen then fresh water. The surface should be moving not flat as glass.
Do very small water changes once a week to keep up the parameters, and indeed STOP adding chemicals. You need better media (filter floss) and more rock. Oh...if you put a backing on that tank it would look 100Xs better.
It's actually a bacterial bloom. Oxygen has nothing to do with it. The fish isn't skimming for air. It spends the majority of the time swimming through the bottom portion of the aquarium & any were else. I just received my koralia nano 240gph wave pump in the mail a few days ago. Power heads really aren't that necessary though. unless you have corals which need current to absorb trace elements properly.
Water changes is what is improving the clarity. I'm still sticking with my usual schedule. My media is just fine & I don't require more live rock although I plan on getting some more in the future anyways. I'm not a big fan of backdrops. I think most are tacky & clear looks much more cleaner & sleek. Thanks anyways.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiscoobaguy http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522646
1.Yea, that chemical called pro clear was just to test if it was a chemical imbalance. It's not... now I know for sure that it's a bacterial bloom from cycling. It doesn't harm the fish or my parameters either.
I'm planning to add more LR in the near future but that's not really a requirement though.
2.No, you don't have to in a fowler. Either way though, hang on the back filters don't remove calcium the way protein skimmers do so I can't just add calcium. I have to first test to see how much has been depleted that a water change couldn't handle & then add accordingly.
3.I feed my clown once a day or every other day 2-3 pellets. That' a good amount. He eats it all. I have held back a little because of the bloom though.
4.Yea, I guess I'll just get an invertebrate to deal with the detritus material at the bottom.
5.Yea, I don't just add chemicals willy nilly lol. I have done water changes & it improved.
Thanks anyways.
It's actually a bacterial bloom. Oxygen has nothing to do with it. The fish isn't skimming for air. It spends the majority of the time swimming through the bottom portion of the aquarium & any were else. I just received my koralia nano 240gph wave pump in the mail a few days ago. Power heads really aren't that necessary though. unless you have corals which need current to absorb trace elements properly.
Water changes is what is improving the clarity. I'm still sticking with my usual schedule. My media is just fine & I don't require more live rock although I plan on getting some more in the future anyways. I'm not a big fan of backdrops. I think most are tacky & clear looks much more cleaner & sleek. Thanks anyways.
Hi,
Sorry I didn't realize you already knew everything.
No need for power heads
No need for more live rock...I'm sure your two pieces is more than enough natural filtration
No need for something in your filter besides some Chemipure.
I'm amazed and never knew protein skimmers removed calcium, here I was thinking all these years it removed organic matter, stupid me.
Oh and the pellets...I'm sure there is no better fish food out there either. It's good thing you posted your pics of the fish gulping air at the top...Now I understand, it's hanging out at the bottom...all I have to do is flip the picture over and there it is.
My goodness me. I will not bother you again, on that you can be sure. I only have kept fish for 35 years...and all this time I thought I knew a little something, I'm sure the rest of us can learn from your massive experience...carry on

 

[snakeblitz33]

Oh wow, this is all new information to me too. I didnt know that powerheads werent needed in fowlr tanks and that skimmers removed calcium? Wow, ive been doing things wrong for years. Silly me. I guess i should have read a few books and read some new hobbyist guides first.

 

[sweatervest13]

Hi There.
Quote:
I have some grayish blackish material growing on my Coraline rock that's spread across my sand bed as well. I think it's brush algae from the red algae family from what I've researched. The rock doesn't smell bad like die off either. Would an invertebrate like a crab or star take care of it? What do you think it is? Also, recently I've had cloudy water from a bacterial bloom. I believe it to be bacterial because I used kent pro clear which eliminates cloudiness from imbalanced water & did nothing. Will it go away on it's own? I have a 10 gallon with live aragonite sand, & fully cured live Coraline rock from fiji. I'm using a regular hang on the back filter (just took out the bio media) & water from the lfs. All my parameters are were they should (ph, kh, cal, mag, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, & ammonia). I have one false percula.
I am not really sure what to add that the others have not already tried. Did you start this thread as a joke?? Your reply's were very defensive to the point where it could be taken as rude.
I agree with a couple of the other reply's, the tank needs more LR. It looks very empty. The Live Rock is your biological filter and it will do most of the work converting the waste your fish produces to less harmful things. I suggest more for that reason. Also, I would suggest more so the tank does not look so sad and empty. You should also add a power head. Buy hey, to each their own. Its your tank bro, do with it what you will. But I will say this.... You will not get much help here if you keep asking questions and then disregarding the answers people take their precious time to write out for you. Folks here really do like to help, but it can get frustrating when you take time to reply and the reply is not appreciated. Just saying.

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

Whoa... friends, I'm sorry if I offended you. I was merely stating the facts. No need to get so emotional about it. Likewise I'm sure many of you are very quick to tell others that their wrong. I mean come-on let's face it. Especially the die hard users on here

. All I did was state something different then what you first said. No big deal. I'm not new to saltwater & I know few things about biology since that's what I minor in. The first comments answered the question to no avail & only raised trivial information. That's not my fault. No need to get snobby.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522653
Oh wow, this is all new information to me too. I didn't know that powerheads werent needed in fowlr tanks and that skimmers removed calcium? Wow, ive been doing things wrong for years. Silly me. I guess i should have read a few books and read some new hobbyist guides first.
Yes, they remove organic & inorganic elements & compounds such as calcium carbonate & magnesium carbonate & of course depending on your particular model's efficiency these amounts might be trivial. All I was stating is that it is very important for me to check. Sorrey that bothered you friend. Sure, rocks are definitely biological filtration but, that's really not to say that without them their is not. Bio filtration is with in every part of the water that nitrifying bacteria exist. Yes, in the ocean water current plays a big role in protein skimming of the waves & the current that brings corals nutrients but, in your home aquarium the water amount is not enough that the filter's powerhead won't be powerful enough to turn the entire volume of water over sufficiently so that water can pass through the rock.

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiscoobaguy http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522664
Whoa... friends, I'm sorry if I offended you. I was merely stating the facts. No need to get so emotional about it. Likewise I'm sure many of you are very quick to tell others that their wrong. I mean come-on let's face it. Especially the die hard users on here

. All I did was state something different then what you first said. No big deal. I'm not new to saltwater & I know few things about biology since that's what I minor in. The first comments answered the question to no avail & only raised trivial information. That's not my fault. No need to get snobby.
Yes, they remove organic & inorganic elements & compounds such as calcium carbonate & magnesium carbonate & of course depending on your particular model's efficiency these amounts might be trivial. All I was stating is that it is very important for me to check. Sorrey that bothered you friend. Sure, rocks are definitely biological filtration but, that's really not to say that without them their is not. Bio filtration is with in every part of the water that nitrifying bacteria exist. Yes, in the ocean water current plays a big role in protein skimming of the waves & the current that brings corals nutrients but, in your home aquarium the water amount is not enough that the filter's powerhead won't be powerful enough to turn the entire volume of water over sufficiently so that water can pass through the rock.
Very little nitrifying bacteria exists in the water column. It is on the hard surfaces of the tank. All things being equal, the more rock you have the more room for the nitrifying bacteria you will have, this will give you a better more resilient bio filter. Can it be done with little or no LR??? It sure can... But most folks are going for a thriving system, not just a system that will get them by. There is no rule that says that I need to drive a car to work the 25 miles it takes to get there. Sure I could walk or take a bike, but its a much better, efficient idea for me to drive my car.
A few people suggested for you to get a powerhead in the tank. That is just what it was...A suggestion. Take it or leave it. IMO, a power head would help with your original question about the grayish blackish material that is on your LR. Power heads are not only used to bring nutrients to corals, but also to suspend detritus in the water column for it to be picked/sucked up by your mechanical filtration (your HOB power filter). Their suggestion was a direct answer to your question on what to do about that "stuff" on your rocks.
For the record, I took no offense to your responses, but I did find them very defensive. Defensive to a point where I questioned why you were asking for help, and when folks responded you shot them down. I guess things always get lost when reading a written post. It can be very hard to tell inflection and tone in writing.

 

[beaslbob]

Add macro algae
Kill the lights and suspend feeding until the water clears.
the resume with less lighting and feeding and adjust so the corralin thrives and the water stays clear.
my .02

 

[flower]

Okay....maybe it was just a misunderstanding
I thought I had a bacterial bloom as well, not too long ago either, just last month. It turned out that I have a very small bedroom, and whenever I did my fingernails, using lots of polish remover which smelled very strong.....it caused my tank to cloud up. Opening the windows and using a fan caused it to clear up fast. It happened the second time before I realized it wasn't a bacteria bloom but lack of oxygen. Now I know you don't have my type of problem with sucking the air out of the room...but with no power head, or air line...l really think it's an oxygen problem. Even a glass of water will go stale if the water just sits there.
Your little fish is not at the bottom of the tank. It's at the top where it has more air. So maybe, just maybe you might try a little nano power head in there, or even an airline, and have a look see if it will help. When you did a water change I bet it did clear up a little...you moved the water around when you added more in, it won't take long before the fish is back at the top, and the water is cloudy again.. Surely you are not worried about how the tank will look with equipment in there, it's possible that your little tank is the emptiest blank looking tank I have ever seen. Since you don't seem to care about what the tank looks like...why not see if my advice will help you?

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

jeez, sorry for even asking... don't worry guys I'll take it down asap if it makes you feel better.

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatervest13 http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522667
Very little nitrifying bacteria exists in the water column. It is on the hard surfaces of the tank. All things being equal, the more rock you have the more room for the nitrifying bacteria you will have, this will give you a better more resilient bio filter. Can it be done with little or no LR??? It sure can... But most folks are going for a thriving system, not just a system that will get them by. There is no rule that says that I need to drive a car to work the 25 miles it takes to get there. Sure I could walk or take a bike, but its a much better, efficient idea for me to drive my car.
A few people suggested for you to get a powerhead in the tank. That is just what it was...A suggestion. Take it or leave it. IMO, a power head would help with your original question about the grayish blackish material that is on your LR. Power heads are not only used to bring nutrients to corals, but also to suspend detritus in the water column for it to be picked/sucked up by your mechanical filtration (your HOB power filter). Their suggestion was a direct answer to your question on what to do about that "stuff" on your rocks.
For the record, I took no offense to your responses, but I did find them very defensive. Defensive to a point where I questioned why you were asking for help, and when folks responded you shot them down. I guess things always get lost when reading a written post. It can be very hard to tell inflection and tone in writing.
Just fyi they exist in gravel, sand, bio-media, etc which is enough surface area anyways. what amount of live rock you have is not a deal breaker & that's what I meant. Good luck with your fish!

 

[flower]

Wow...I guess my first impression of you is indeed the correct one. Not a misunderstanding at all, you do get mad and spout off being nasty...ON PURPOSE.
Is it me, or does the thread starter begin with "coralline and cloudy water QUESTION" ? If you had just posted...I have cloudy water, and I know exactly what's going on because I already know everything there is to know. If you post an answer to me and I will act like a S____head troll.
Since we have entered the world of the tiny brained folk....I'm a fairy with super powers ....a troll you shall be, I grant your wish.
poof like magic

 

[snakeblitz33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiscoobaguy http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522664
Whoa... friends, I'm sorry if I offended you. I was merely stating the facts. No need to get so emotional about it. Likewise I'm sure many of you are very quick to tell others that their wrong. I mean come-on let's face it. Especially the die hard users on here

. All I did was state something different then what you first said. No big deal. I'm not new to saltwater & I know few things about biology since that's what I minor in. The first comments answered the question to no avail & only raised trivial information. That's not my fault. No need to get snobby.
Yes, they remove organic & inorganic elements & compounds such as calcium carbonate & magnesium carbonate & of course depending on your particular model's efficiency these amounts might be trivial. All I was stating is that it is very important for me to check. Sorrey that bothered you friend. Sure, rocks are definitely biological filtration but, that's really not to say that without them their is not. Bio filtration is with in every part of the water that nitrifying bacteria exist. Yes, in the ocean water current plays a big role in protein skimming of the waves & the current that brings corals nutrients but, in your home aquarium the water amount is not enough that the filter's powerhead won't be powerful enough to turn the entire volume of water over sufficiently so that water can pass through the rock.
Not sure if you call me a die-hard user on here or not. I'm not offended, and could care less if you take my advice or not. I mean, it's not like I have not set up hundreds of aquariums, owned a live fish store and am currently in the process of writing a saltwater aquarium handbook. You can read and research and take whatever advice you want, as long as it suits your needs.
When I asked those questions, I was being very sarcastic. I guess I don't convey sarcasm really well over the internet.
Protein skimmers remove DOC's, or Dissolved Organic Compounds. When the bubbles burst and the slurry of skimmate is collected, there is a testable salinity. Contained within this salt is trace amounts of all elements found in saltwater - and no more than the water would be in your tank - it does not condense saltwater. You're right, to an extent, that a biological filter can be any medium in which bacteria can stick - mechanical filters have major concentrations of bacteria and other microorganisms and provides a biological medium as well as a mechanical particulate filter. However, that being said, live rock does have it's place in a tank. Mechanical filters need to be changed - and quite often - so if you don't have live rock in the tank and you replace your mechanical filter, you *can potentially have ammonia and nitrite issues. So, live rock and other media help transfer some of the biological load until a mechanical filter can be established again. Since most people rely on live rock to do that job, regardless of a mechanical filter being present or not, live rock is then a necessary evil.
Even though we can not replicate the power of the waves in our tank and the whole entire ocean, we can come as close to nature as possible. Adding additional water movement will improve your tank health by keeping detritus suspended, to remove waste and to keep the tanks pH elevated by increasing gas exchange. Not adding a powerhead to a tank and just relying on one small filter is probably a mistake that most new hobbyists make on the first try.
If you are not new to saltwater aquariums, please by all means post pictures of your previous successes.

 

[sweatervest13]

Just fyi they exist in gravel, sand, bio-media, etc which is enough surface area anyways. what amount of live rock you have is not a deal breaker & that's what I meant. Good luck with your fish! :hi:
Thanks for the heads up. I totally agree that the amount of rock in a tank is not a deal breaker. But i do have to totally disagree that the amount of benificial bacteria on the sand, glass, bio-media is enough to maintain a successful system long term. The hobby before Live Rock was nothing like it is today. LR was/is a game changer. Almost to a point of, the more the better.
For what its worth I am a big fan of the minimalist aquascapes. When they are done right they can be some of the best looking tanks.
Thank you for the well wishes also. Good luck with your fish too!!

 

[miamiscoobaguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/395616/coraline-cloudy-water-question#post_3522722
Not sure if you call me a die-hard user on here or not. I'm not offended, and could care less if you take my advice or not. I mean, it's not like I have not set up hundreds of aquariums, owned a live fish store and am currently in the process of writing a saltwater aquarium handbook. You can read and research and take whatever advice you want, as long as it suits your needs.
When I asked those questions, I was being very sarcastic. I guess I don't convey sarcasm really well over the internet.
Protein skimmers remove DOC's, or Dissolved Organic Compounds. When the bubbles burst and the slurry of skimmate is collected, there is a testable salinity. Contained within this salt is trace amounts of all elements found in saltwater - and no more than the water would be in your tank - it does not condense saltwater. You're right, to an extent, that a biological filter can be any medium in which bacteria can stick - mechanical filters have major concentrations of bacteria and other microorganisms and provides a biological medium as well as a mechanical particulate filter. However, that being said, live rock does have it's place in a tank. Mechanical filters need to be changed - and quite often - so if you don't have live rock in the tank and you replace your mechanical filter, you *can potentially have ammonia and nitrite issues. So, live rock and other media help transfer some of the biological load until a mechanical filter can be established again. Since most people rely on live rock to do that job, regardless of a mechanical filter being present or not, live rock is then a necessary evil.
Even though we can not replicate the power of the waves in our tank and the whole entire ocean, we can come as close to nature as possible. Adding additional water movement will improve your tank health by keeping detritus suspended, to remove waste and to keep the tanks pH elevated by increasing gas exchange. Not adding a powerhead to a tank and just relying on one small filter is probably a mistake that most new hobbyists make on the first try.
If you are not new to saltwater aquariums, please by all means post pictures of your previous successes.
I help maintain the saltwater reef & planted freshwater aquariums at my university with some classmates & biology professor for the last few years now. He actually helped me set up mine & also advised me that the cloudy water is just bacterial bloom that happens in the early state even w/ some big aquariums. Again I'm sorry & I respect your knowledge even though I don't agree with all of it.