Couple more ?s before switch to DSB

kris

Member
I am now planning the switch to a dsb for my smaller tank (you've all got me convinced) I know we've discussed this a few times, but I got a couple more not so quick questions. So put your thinking caps on. (of course this may be quite simple and obvious to some of you experienced dsb keepers)
Back in the old days, I was taught that dead spots or anaerobic zones were very bad and to be avoided at all costs by doing your best to keep your bed oxygenated. It was in these dead spots (usually under a ug plate or under rocks that don't get moved) that the dreaded H2S forms that is lethal. I believe it is this sulfide that is usually the culprit in those mysterious established tank "crashes". I also believe that proper maintenace of the cc bed is crucial to avoiding not only the nitrate build up but also the above mentioned H2S.
Those are the things and theories that I have lived by for a very long time--and have kept successful tanks by employing said theories.
Having said that, I'll move on to the questions. Apparently in a DSB we now WANT these dead zones but referred to as 'anoxic" in DSB language. What's the difference??? What keeps a DSB at the perfect O2 level which in my mind can't be totally devoid of it. The denitrifying bacteria have to at least find the O2 in the No3 in order to convert it into N2 and NO2. Right??? or not. Am I wrong ??
Is the grain size really an important factor?? seems to me that the DSB should at least be somewhat permeable --is that possible with the super fine grade sand?? I can't see how it could be, but I'm asking cause I don't actually know. Someone mentioned keeping just the very top level oxygenated and let the bottom level be o2 free. How the heck do you accomplish that?? Or is the slightly larger grain better. Like the aragonite which comes in 1-2 mm. Of course if it too large (like over 2 mm??)then I'm guessing it might as well be cc cause it will trap the debris?? So what is the best grain size??? My other question pertains to ph--is live sand capable of buffering like cc does?? Ok one last question (Thank you for continuing to read this long boring post :) ) My last one is after you've made the switch should you introduce your cleanup crew right away or wait till it's grown and established itself.??? I'd hate to add them only to have them all starve (although I do have lr) But then I'd hate for my DSB to go stale (is that the right word??) by not having any sifters and such in it.
Thank you VERY much for those of you who actually read this post, and no I won't feel bad if no one replies but of couse I would like some answers from all of you who have DSBs.
The complexity is so perplexing <img src="graemlins//urrr.gif" border="0" alt="[urrr]" /> <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" /> <img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />
 

nacl-h2o

Active Member
H2S is not a very likly culprit for any type of mysterious death the stinch would be terrible, a dead give away to the problem. You don't want a no O2 zone for deonitrification you want low O2. More water will cirrculate through your DSB then you think. And smaller grain size is better, the smaller the size the greater the suface area for the bacteria to grow. And sand stiring critters keep your upper sand stired and leave the lower levels alone. i hope I helped with some of your questions.
 

kris

Member
Thank you very much NaCl! I appreciate you're taking the time to not only just read the stupid post but reply as well!!
On the H2S thing though-The research I did awhile ago led me to believe that by the time the smell surfaced the damage had already been done.
Anyway, my other quicker questions were about the ph--can ls buffer like cc?
Oh and can a dsb be to deep?? I know that 3-4 inches is typical but is it bad if it goes to 5?
 

david s

Member
as far as how deep cris alot of people run there dsb at 6 inch or more so as far as too deep i dont think it can be but i dont think anyone runs a 12inch lol )
 

nacl-h2o

Active Member
Reguler sand the type most people use in DSB's like southdown will not buffer at all. You will have to use a buffer if needed. Very fine sand can be as shallow as 2" and still provide some nitrate control, but 3"-4" is better. Substrates made with something larger like CC with particals 1-3mm would have to be deeper 5" or more. And some people mix them to get the benefits of both, but keep in mind most of the CC will sooner or later make it up to the top of the bed. I don't think I would go as deep as 5" or more with something fine like southdown. And my comment about hydrogen sulfide was more to the point that if that distroyed your tank it wouln't be a mystery, because of the smell, not that it was a savable situation once you started to smell it. If your conserned about dead spots under your rocks push the rocks down in the sand some it will provide more stablity in your rock structure and make the DSB shallower where its covered by rock. HTH
 
D

diatom

Guest
Kris~
Have you read Dr. Ron's Website? He explains all your questions and more in great detail. Check here:
<a href="http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm" target="_blank">http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm</a>
and let me know if you have any more questions afterward.
You won't be disappointed with a DSB I don't think. BTW if your tank is smaller then 30 gal then a DSB is probably not the way to go.
Also there are a few people with 12 inch DSB's. You'll find different creatures down in the deeper sediment layers.
Southdown works fine for a really deep sand bed and the Hydrogen Sulfide produced in a DSB isn't anywhere near the levels that are dangerous to your tank. It does reek if you disturb it though. :D
 

dad

Active Member
I have to reply to this one, lol
I just want to thank you all for figuring these things out. I now feel like a complete dummy.
I'm not being sarcastic.
Infact, I wish I was better educated so I could join in. ;)
I guess skipping class in high school wasn't such a good idea!
 

kris

Member
Dad--don't feel bad--I skipped the majority of my classes and in fact never even finished H.S. Got expelled, and went and got a G.E.D.--anyway this I though was a fascinating subject and I wanted to be successful at keeping marine tanks--so I researched and studied ALOT. Still seems sometimes though that the more I learn the more questions I come up with!!
Diatom-thanks for the link!! I'll check it out as soon as I find a little time. Why do you say that a DSB is not right for a smaller tank?? The one I'm converting is in fact my smaller one. (40g)
NaCl-Thank you yet again for your help :) The H2S "crash" we've talked about would not be a mystery to you or I--but I'd lay good money that the majority of hobbiestd don't even know what H2S is, let alone how it's formed, what effects it can have, and how to avoid it. That's why it's referred to as the big "mystery". Not to imply that people are idiots by any means-it's one of those things not considerd "essential" info to know so no one ever tells them about it. A person's lucky to get acurate feeding info these days let alone a brief chemistry lesson :D
Thanks again for all your input.
 
D

diatom

Guest
Kris~
A DSB should be fine in a 40 gal. The problem with a smaller tank is that many of the creatures that inhabit the DBS will avoid the area close to the glass and thus won't populate it like they should.
 

kris

Member
Diatom--Why would they do that in a small tank as opposed to a big tank?? Or do they avoid the glass in all tanks?? This is something I had not heard about.
 
D

diatom

Guest
Kris they tend to stay back about 6-12 inches from the glass edges so if you have a small footprint on your tank it doesn't leave much room for them to reproduce. I'm not sure if I am explaining this very well...let me know if it's not clear and I'll work on it.
 

kris

Member
well if thats the case I'll end up having one big pile in the middle of my tank!! It's only 2ft across. Maybe I shouldn't switch after all?? What do you think??
Thanks again for your help.
 
D

diatom

Guest
Kris~
I am not explaining this very well....a lot of the creatures that live in the sand avoid the areas near the glass that is exposed to light...if you have a small tank then they all cluster together in the center and don't do the jobs that they need to. your tank is fine in size for a dsb...at 20 gallon wouldn't be. The switch weill be very beneficial I promise.
 

kris

Member
Thank you all VERY much--I've learned alot.
I'm also sure you will all be glad to know I'm planning on attending my first "over analysers anonomous" meeting. :rolleyes: :D
 
Top