Custom Sump Input

[acrylic51]

I do see a slight flaw with the layout.....1 is a noise issue from the fuge flowing back into the skimmer section.....Honestly I wouldn't drain my fuge back into the skimmer section. I would drain it directly to the return area of the sump......As far as the cross bracing.....Yes and no.....Doesn't add tons of support as you might think. What size material are you planning......Be wise and think about getting it under the stand and then getting the skimmer inside and will you be able to remove the skimmer once it's in place.......Just some thoughts.....You really don't need 20" in height, but if you can fit it then go for it.....

 

[juice_1080]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526611
I do see a slight flaw with the layout.....1 is a noise issue from the fuge flowing back into the skimmer section.....Honestly I wouldn't drain my fuge back into the skimmer section. I would drain it directly to the return area of the sump......As far as the cross bracing.....Yes and no.....Doesn't add tons of support as you might think. What size material are you planning......Be wise and think about getting it under the stand and then getting the skimmer inside and will you be able to remove the skimmer once it's in place.......Just some thoughts.....You really don't need 20" in height, but if you can fit it then go for it.....
What is the reason for not running the fuge into the skimmer section? Where do you think I will get noise from? I think it would be beneficial since it will a. not have to run down a tall wall and collect air/splash, and b. run through the bubble trap. Could you explain the noise you think I will get? I'm not seeing it but it doesn't mean it's not there.
I decided to opt for the cross bracing because I had shown the original idea to glasscages and while they decided they didn't want to make it for me, they told me with the dimensions I really should brace it. I might make that removable and just have it "hook" onto both sides to pull them in a bit. I am going to use 3/8" lucite for this build. I have a friend who has been working at an acrylic fab shop for 6-8 years now who is going to help me and he suggests 3/8" should be fine.
My stand is roughly 19.5 x 17.5 x 26" on the inside so I was planning to give myself 1.5" on either dimension to give a bit of clearance. I am going to drop the sump in from the top before I set the tank. I plan on getting the skimmer in place before the tank is in and I can tune it afterwards. If I pull the cup and pump off the skimmer I should be able to get it out without pulling the tank, while it won't be fun to do, its not a routine expedition in my experience.
I just caught your 20" comment too, I should clarify that. My main tank is 20x18x20, its a 27G cube, the sump itself is 18x16x14 so its only 14" tall total, the fuge will have a 12" water depth and the skimmer will be 9" water depth, and of course the pump section will have a variable water level.
Any skimmer options, right now the skimmer footprint is still up in the air as I can shift my plans but smaller (to a point) is better. I would love to see a 60-80G Reef Octopus but I don't think one exists.

 

[acrylic51]

Not arguing what glasscages told you but if you ran that bracing idea by a top of the line acrylic builder they wouldn't do it that way. My motto is do it right or not at all. Look at how an acrylic tanks bracing is done. And with the height I assume water height might be hogher as well??
Noise.... yes the water dropping down into the skimmer area will create noise. Lol look through my build and you will see I did something similar and know first hand it will cause noise. What is the point in running it into the skimmer? The skimmer won't process every drop of water by and you could be removing a little tank nutrient as well. Not saying all but some. Besides if your fuge is doung is job the excess nutrients are pulled and the water is clean in terms.. .. just my .02

 

[acrylic51]

3/8" material is fine but if he braces like that..... give me the name of the shop!!!!

 

[juice_1080]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526630
Not arguing what glasscages told you but if you ran that bracing idea by a top of the line acrylic builder they wouldn't do it that way. My motto is do it right or not at all. Look at how an acrylic tanks bracing is done. And with the height I assume water height might be hogher as well??
Noise.... yes the water dropping down into the skimmer area will create noise. Lol look through my build and you will see I did something similar and know first hand it will cause noise. What is the point in running it into the skimmer? The skimmer won't process every drop of water by and you could be removing a little tank nutrient as well. Not saying all but some. Besides if your fuge is doung is job the excess nutrients are pulled and the water is clean in terms.. .. just my .02
I have been handling the design and he is going to help me assemble it. I have no experience welding acyrlic and I would rather trust someone who knows how vs. hoping I do it right. I put the brace there to hold the center from bowing a bit. I originally didn't intend to brace the tank but I put that there due to the response of glasscages.
The left and right sides shouldn't bow, at least not much, since there is the divider running the entire width to stiffen, and the back shouldn't either due to the bubble traps, but the front is one wide open 18x14" surface to take all of that pressure and I was thinking the top might want to bow out a bit.
I know the conventional method is to run a 2-3" strip around the perimeter at the top but since I have the skimmer and other equipment near the outer walls I didn't think it would fit, although I could probably run a 3" strip across the front of the tank to stiffen though.

The intent of me running from fuge to skimmer was to simply take advantage of the bubble trap to prevent any bubbles from running through the pump. Call me paranoid but I had a huge problem with microbubbles with my last sump and I am just trying to be 100% sure it doesn't happen again. I agree with you that the skimmer won't pull every drop of water, and that is not what I am shooting for. I just don't want those pesky bubbles in my tank.
My concern with running straight from fuge to pump is the noise and bubbles. With the current design the fuge water will drop into the skimmer section 2" and then either hit the skimmer or go through the bubble trap and into the pump. If I were to move the teeth to the other side the fuge water would flow straight into the pump chamber, possibly dropping 4-6" and straight into the pump. That is why I was thinking it would add more noise and bubbles than running it through the trap first since it is dropping 2-3x the height.
The teeth in the fuge should maintain the height at 11" since that is where the teeth stop. The bubble trap will maintain the skimmer chamber at 9" and the pump chamber will be however high it can be depending on evaporation.
Sorry if I am coming across rude, I am not intending to, I am just trying to explain the thought behind my design, if it doesn't make sense I want to know so I can plan ahead. Given the above statement about water heights does my proposal make sense or am I still not getting something you are saying?

 

[acrylic51]

Not trying to be rude either. When you say very little bowing its the wrong way about it from the start. If it bows from the start it will get worse later. That is a fact. Brace the sump accordingly is all I'm suggesting.
Your teeth or water level at 11" is high and again most skimmers don't operateefficiently at that depth so that creates a possible other issue and again clearance under the stand. As far as bubbles nack to the retun area should or wouldn't be any simce flow theough the teeth and through the fuge is relatively slow.

 

[saxman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526668
Not trying to be rude either. When you say very little bowing its the wrong way about it from the start. If it bows from the start it will get worse later. That is a fact. Brace the sump accordingly is all I'm suggesting.
Agreed...Renee and i have several acrylic tanks/sumps, and unless you go a bit "overboard" on stock thickness, they will indeed bow. If there's bowing at all, it will indeed get worse in time.

 

[juice_1080]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526668
Not trying to be rude either. When you say very little bowing its the wrong way about it from the start. If it bows from the start it will get worse later. That is a fact. Brace the sump accordingly is all I'm suggesting.
Your teeth or water level at 11" is high and again most skimmers don't operateefficiently at that depth so that creates a possible other issue and again clearance under the stand. As far as bubbles nack to the retun area should or wouldn't be any simce flow theough the teeth and through the fuge is relatively slow.
The refugium section will be at 11" but will flow down to the skimmer section which will be regulated to 9" high via the bubble trap height. I know most skimmers operate well around the 9" height so that is why I set those that high. The skimmer chamber shouldn't be at a height above the bubble trap so it should regulate it to 9" (if it does go higher it will flow above the bubble trap). I could push the teeth to the other side and see how it goes. I could maybe put a provision in there to add a cover to block the flow if I don't like it and see how it goes as well. Wouldn't be much work to cut a cover out and tap a few holes to hold it in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526684
Agreed...Renee and i have several acrylic tanks/sumps, and unless you go a bit "overboard" on stock thickness, they will indeed bow. If there's bowing at all, it will indeed get worse in time.
If I brace the front and two sides I should hopefully get enough, I don't think I'll be able to get a brace to run the length of the back and unfortunately if it doesn't run the whole back I fear it will end up increasing the stresses at the end that is not supported.
I did see that 1/2" lucite is the same price as 3/8" though so maybe I will just plan to beef it up a bit and do it that way. It will be a bit heavier and I will lose a small bit of volume but it will be much stronger.

 

[acrylic51]

If the guy building is good, it can easily be configured to properly brace the sump.....The area where the skimmer or intake of the sump is I can think of a couple ingenious cool ways to go about it in that area......along in the fuge area and so on....No one says the bracing has to be massive or obtrusive, but even bracing front to back in the corners and middle still doesn't provide proper bracing to distribute the stress.....You want to minimize or eliminate straight edges on your bracing. The key is "radius" corners to distribute the stress in those areas and the areas being the corners......I'm pretty confident that with some work you could get away with bracing just the fuge area on the idea or concept that the fuge "retaining wall" or "separating wall" runs the same height as the perimeter walls....Meaning you or your fabricator would have to get fancy with cutting the teeth in the fuge wall, which shouldn't be an issue for a fab shop.

 

[juice_1080]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526718

If the guy building is good, it can easily be configured to properly brace the sump.....The area where the skimmer or intake of the sump is I can think of a couple ingenious cool ways to go about it in that area......along in the fuge area and so on....No one says the bracing has to be massive or obtrusive, but even bracing front to back in the corners and middle still doesn't provide proper bracing to distribute the stress.....You want to minimize or eliminate straight edges on your bracing. The key is "radius" corners to distribute the stress in those areas and the areas being the corners......I'm pretty confident that with some work you could get away with bracing just the fuge area on the idea or concept that the fuge "retaining wall" or "separating wall" runs the same height as the perimeter walls....Meaning you or your fabricator would have to get fancy with cutting the teeth in the fuge wall, which shouldn't be an issue for a fab shop.
I am the "fab shop" and will be cutting all the pieces, I plan to make the teeth real quick work on a mill. My buddy is just helping with the build up. If it doesn't drastically change my cut list making me order more stock, I could continue the partition to the top like you mention and cut slots for teeth that end before the top so there is material above them connecting end to end of the sump. I will have to check how I am utilizing the material and see if I can push that wall higher. I think I can but I can't remember how I laid it out on the sheets. It's roughly $100 for a 2'x4' sheet of 1/2", I need two and I'd like to keep it at two and not three. I was thinking I could also run the high baffles up to the top as well.
I know optimally I would run a single piece rim on top with radius'd corners but I don't think I will need to do this. One thing I can work into my advantage is to bring the overall size up to just under (1/8" or less) the size of my stand so the stand walls are the braces, only problem being I don't think that side load on the stand would be a good thing and I'm not sure I want it to fit that tight, I may never get it back out.
Anyone have suggestions on skimmers? I was looking at the ASM Mini-G but any other suggestions would be appreciated. Only skimmer I have ever owned was a Reef Octopus and I loved it but I don't think I can find one that will fit this build. I've been out for a while and don't know what has been good/bad lately.
Thanks all!

 

[saxman]

Dood...I absolutely HATED the ASM Mini-G...in fact, it now resides in a landfill someplace. It was VERY picky about water depth, which I fixed by adding a shelf for it to sit on in the sump. It was also made poorly and actually came apart. The original pump died too, so I had to replace it as well. In short, the worst skimmer I've ever owned...I liked my old Sea Clone better.
The Eshopps skimmers are much nicer and are easier to use. I love their cone skimmers.

 

[juice_1080]

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxman http:///t/395783/custom-sump-input/20#post_3526887
Dood...I absolutely HATED the ASM Mini-G...in fact, it now resides in a landfill someplace. It was VERY picky about water depth, which I fixed by adding a shelf for it to sit on in the sump. It was also made poorly and actually came apart. The original pump died too, so I had to replace it as well. In short, the worst skimmer I've ever owned...I liked my old Sea Clone better.
The Eshopps skimmers are much nicer and are easier to use. I love their cone skimmers.
Hmm, I've never had one but I've always though they were highly recommended. Maybe not the Mini-G though. I know right in the description they put "They are made at a lower cost, which will not affect the performance or quality, yet pass the savings on to you." I guess thats a sign that they build them like crap. I can fit the Eshopps S-120 cone skimmer in there with a little design tweaking. I have to eliminate two of the bubble trap baffles so I hope I can still get enough blocking through them. It's also a bit more taxing on the pocket book but if it's worth it it will pay off in the end.

 

[acrylic51]

It wouldn't say it's a bad skimmer necause of material used. Its made of plastic and from first obvious glance they arent seamed or glued and that is common knowledge as well. Theu jave an O ring between the cone upper body and the actual skimmer body so they are designed to come apart if needed. As with any skimmer and more known and publicized now than back in the hayday of ASM, but everyone knows all skimmers are all sensitive to water depth when it comes to performance.
These were skimmers that were comparable to the old eruro reef skimmers.

 

[saxman]

A51,
There's sensitive and there's ridiculously sensitive. The mini-G falls in the latter category, IME. The part that "broke" was one of the internal parts that isn't meant to come apart, and IIRC, the glue joint failed, and it wasn't worth trying to fix it IMHO (it wasn't an easy joint to get to).
I know that ASM was an off-shoot of ER, but I can say that the ER's are WAY better skimmers...at least the one I've owned was far superior.
Juice,
We've been running an Eshopps S-150 cone for several years now and it's still a great performer.