Cycle question... And a couple others

[aquiman]

I am baffled about my new tank cycle (90G FOLR) and don't know whether I'm in good shape or about to get in trouble. I started around the first week of August with 75 lbs of sand with 1/3 of it live.  I added a cocktail shrimp like some recommend, and removed it after about 4 or 5 days after it rotted pretty good. I'm running an EcoSystem 3012 sump/refugium and the mud was added on August 5th. I added 15 lbs of live rock August, 12  and another 30 lbs on August 16.   Also running an Urchin AquaC protein skimmer. All water is RODI, and salinity has consistently been around 1.023. I have Solar Extreme 48" Lighting (4) 54W T5 bulbs which I've been running about 10 hours/day and am in the midst of a diatom bloom for about 5 days now so I'm going to cut down on the lights. Under guidance of LFS, I added 2 Ocellaris Clowns an 2 Green Chromis on August 17 and ammonia and nitrites remained at 0 for another week. So I then added a flame angel, yellow tang, diamond sleeper goby on August 24. My water has continued to look really good and I'm now only starting to see a minor level of ammonia about .25 but this is the first sign of any of it, and I've not seen any nitrites or nitrates at all. I have not done any water changes nor have I added any chemicals or conditioners. I don't plan on adding any more fish for a while, but want to know if what I've seen is normal or if I'm in for a spike and should have waited longer to add fish. Any guidance appreciated!
 
How many fish can this setup handle?
Following is my wish list over time with the more aggressive ones going in last: clown trigger, hippo tang, eel, puffer, copper banded butterfly, long nose butterfly, niger trigger, dragon fly and lion fish. Any glaring problems?
With a set up like this, is a UV sterilizer necessary?
Is it best to turn off sump when doing water changes so its water level doesn't go too low?  
Thanks!
:flame:
 
 

 

[bubblegurl]

You've got 7 fish in a tank that's been set up less than a month? I be thinking you might start having issues. Get some amquel or prime to help deal with ammonia. Prodibo also has a great start up system.
Did you have any lr when you added the sand? The sand wont start your cycle, the rock will. The lr needs to become established to help with filtering of your system and the 7 fish may be too much for it. also you only have 42lbs of lr, you need more, that's not enough, and adding fish the day after adding more rock, the rock will cycle as it will have some die off being out of water.
Don't add anymore fish, do a water change and get the ammonia back to 0. Let the tank run for at least a month with no new additions, then only add 1-2 fish at a time every couple of weeks.
Be careful of what your Lfs tells you. Chances are they are betting the fish don't survive and you'll be back buying more.
This hobby is all about patience, slow down and you'll enjoy it much more!

 

[brun67]

just a thought but you might want to slow it down a little bit. let the fish have some time in the tank so you can monitor the behavior and see if anything is wrong before you go adding more fish.
with your fish list - there are a few issues...
since the 7 fish you already have are pretty much peaceful-ish, they wont mix well with some of the others you want to add.

• 
  triggers are mean (usually) (I have a picasso and he's a mean little guy) they also dont mix with lionfish. they will harass it to death....
• 
  the butterflies should be alright, they might peck at your corals, if you plan to keep any.
  depending on the type of eel you plan to get, it might not be a good idea. the clowns and chromis will make a nice snack for a medium sized eel. they are also expert escape artists so you need a secure top. I have a zebra moray eel and he is incredibly passive. never once goes for my hand (unlike my trigger) and he leaves every fish alone.
  depending on the type of puffer, it would be fine with the fish you have now. I'd recommend a member of the Toby family. they are smaller and a couple have some vibrant colors.

well i hope this helps, and congrats on your tank! i know how it feels to finally get it started....

 

[bubblegurl]

+1 above!
Sorry, I should have said hi and welcome to the addiction first!!!
I have a blue throat trigger and it is by far one of my favorite fish! He is extremely passive but he always comes to glass to have a visit when I'm sitting watching my tank. My blue hippo tang however is a jerk and actually picks on him. I agree with the above in that you need to decide what direction you want your tank to go. Reef, FOWLR, aggressive or peaceful tank. There are so many cool fish to chose from but not all work together in a tank. Some are poisonous and could crash your tank, I've learned that reef safe fish with caution are usually not so reef safe for many different reasons. While you are letting your tank stabilize, its a great time to research how you'd like to move forward!

 

[sweatervest13]

It looks like you are in good hands with Brun67 and Bubblegurl. They are both giving good advice. Take it slow and observe the tank. Keep testing for the ammonia, you will have to soft cycle the tank (meaning cycle the tank with inhabitants). It is a bit of a pain but will (should) keep all the fish alive. Get prime or amquel (these will not remove the ammonia but it locks it up and makes it not as toxic) either will (should) keep the fish alive as well.
As for the water changes.... Yes shut down the return pump for your sump... Let it drain and back siphon (this is when the water from the tank is being drained by your return line when the pump is shut down. It will suck water until air is introduced to the siphon..you should have a small hole under the water on the return line to start sucking air), once there is no more water coming into the sump, then you can do your WC. HTH's!!

 

[aquiman]

Wow, thanks to all for the great advice, it is very much appreciated! I definitely won't be adding any fish for at at least a month. I'll also go get some of the suggested stuff for the ammonia and watch it real close. As for BGURL question, yes the LR went in after the sand. As for the 7 fish, not sure how much it matters but all of them are on the small side.
BRUN67 thanks for the info on the fish - very helpful to me.
Sweatervest thanks for your info too... But a dumb question.... What does HTH mean? (I feel like I should know but can't think of it)
I don't plan on any corals. Is this when a UV sterilizer would come in to play?
Any thought on how many fish a set up like this can handle based on the types I listed? (I'll have patience when adding
Thanks again!
:hi:

 

[bubblegurl]

Uv sterilizers are said to help deal with parasites but if also affects the beneficial bacteria in the water column. I have one for my tank but haven't actually used it and not sure I will. I can't offer any advice on them. Other people quarantine their fish before adding to their main tank. During this time they'll watch for signs of ich and other things which can affect the fish and potentially wipe them all out. They'll treat the qt tank accordingly and won't add these fish to their main tank for 2-3 months. This insures no diseases are added to a stocked tank, trying to catch a sick fish in your dt can be impossible without ripping it apart....Using this method eliminates the need for a uv sterilizer. I don't qt my fish and take a chance of adding something but I have my reasons.
I think you may have been given bad advice with your cycle but what's done is done. the 7 small fish have increased the bioload in your tank and the system needs to catch up. You may have to do more water changes over the next while.
I like your fish list, but they are big fish. You have to consider the adult size of the fish when deciding what goes in. Clown triggers get very big and I've heard they are very aggressive. Copper band butterflies do not have a huge success rate in captivity, I would wait until you have more experience and learn how to get fish to eat certain foods. I'm in just over a year and I won't attempt this fish yet.
For reference for the amount of fish hopefully someone else chimes in. In my 55, I have 1 clown, 2 chromis and 1flame back angel. I'm going to add a couple fairy wrasses, maybe a goby and 1 more clown, but all suited to a tank this size. In my 180, I have a yellow tang, tominni tang, hippo tang, blue throat trigger, 2 clarkii clowns, candy hogfish, cardinal, royal gramma and radiant wrasse, oh and my diamond goby. I'm looking at some anthias and a couple more wrasses then I think that's it. if you chose all big fish you'll only be able to keep a few.
Hth=hope that helps.
Cheers

 

[aquiman]

Hey, thanks again for the advise. I've seen rather large clown triggers so I'll probably scrap that not knowing how fast i can expect them to grow when buying a small one. Knowing how they are, I had planned on adding him last to be less territorial... Too bad because they are amazing looking. I guess I'll also put any thought of UV sterilizer on the back burner.... As for QT tank, I've read how important they are, but for now after all the $ I spent getting this going, that will go on the back burner too. Thanks again?

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquiman http:///t/392777/cycle-question-and-a-couple-others#post_3490125
Hey, thanks again for the advise. I've seen rather large clown triggers so I'll probably scrap that not knowing how fast i can expect them to grow when buying a small one. Knowing how they are, I had planned on adding him last to be less territorial... Too bad because they are amazing looking. I guess I'll also put any thought of UV sterilizer on the back burner.... As for QT tank, I've read how important they are, but for now after all the $ I spent getting this going, that will go on the back burner too. Thanks again?
Hi,
Welcome to the site....
A 10g quarantine tank will run you about $12.00 for the tank, and another $12.00 for a small Whisper filter. A scrap piece of PVC or a plastic decoration to let the fish hide.... You dont even need a light or gravel. It isn't like setting up your DT, you leave it plain so you can add medicune if you need to. It is actually cheaper than a fish, not to mention how much money it will save if you place a sick fish in the tank that wipes out everything. So I don't suggest you put it on the back burner.

 

[geridoc]

I second Flower's post. A quarantine system is more important than lights,UV sterilizers and all of that other stuff they sell us. Without a quarantine tank it is only a matter of time (and usually not much time) before your dt gets wiped out by ich or some other parasite or bacterial infection. Also, don't forget that even the healthiest looking fish in your lfs is in terrible shape, having been removed from its home environment, shipped in lousy water half way around the world, dumped into various qualities of water, and eventually sold to you. A period in quarantine gives this poor animal a chance to recover and to eat without competing with your already adapted stock in the dt. I have been keeping marine fish for 38 years (I think, it's hard to remember), and would never, ever be without a quarantine tank set up exactly as Flower suggested.

 

[mr. limpid]

Your question on how many fish in your tank? There really is not a set number it depends on the fish, how big they will grow, there eating habits (meat eaters, algae eaters, messy eaters), how much filtration you have (90gal DT with 90gal sump can have more fish then a 30gal sump), protein skimmer (will add to filtration), refum with macro (will add to filtration), algae scrubber (will add to filtration), 42lbs LR vs 142lbs LR, do you see the pattern. More filtration more fish, keep asking questions.
And welcome to our addiction, once you get salt in your veins in never comes out.

 

[aquiman]

Ok you guys who have responded to me are ausome and I thank you so much! As for the QT tank, I see that's a must so I will move that to the front burner. I had no idea it could be so small and not need all things like a DT! I'm glad you all stressed the importance so now I get it. Aside from the QT and watching the swimmers closely, what else can be done to help ensure the tank doesn't get something horrible that wipes it out? Is it always something you inadvertently introduce or can these things just develop from within or both? Not familiar with algae scrubber... Is it a must have for FOLR tank? My questions seem endless. I actually had a marine tank 25 years ago but either so much has changed or I can't remember anything!
Thanks for the welcoming! I feel the veins filling with salt.... Again.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquiman http:///t/392777/cycle-question-and-a-couple-others#post_3490346
Ok you guys who have responded to me are ausome and I thank you so much! As for the QT tank, I see that's a must so I will move that to the front burner. I had no idea it could be so small and not need all things like a DT! I'm glad you all stressed the importance so now I get it. Aside from the QT and watching the swimmers closely, what else can be done to help ensure the tank doesn't get something horrible that wipes it out? Is it always something you inadvertently introduce or can these things just develop from within or both? Not familiar with algae scrubber... Is it a must have for FOLR tank? My questions seem endless. I actually had a marine tank 25 years ago but either so much has changed or I can't remember anything!
Thanks for the welcoming! I feel the veins filling with salt.... Again.
LOl...Some corals can be dipped, and some you have to look for critters hitchhicking. Making sure the specimen is healthy, is all it really takes...I don't recommend "rescuing" sick or neglected fish (some do...I don't)
Also buying on-line gives you a 14 day guarantee, at the LFS after they bag it and you walk out of the store...your done. If the fish even dies on the way home it won't matter. So I recommend purchasing your critters on-line...including corals. Also try for home raised critters to keep the ocean in tact.

 

[mr. limpid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquiman http:///t/392777/cycle-question-and-a-couple-others#post_3490346
Ok you guys who have responded to me are ausome and I thank you so much! As for the QT tank, I see that's a must so I will move that to the front burner. I had no idea it could be so small and not need all things like a DT! I'm glad you all stressed the importance so now I get it. Aside from the QT and watching the swimmers closely, what else can be done to help ensure the tank doesn't get something horrible that wipes it out? Is it always something you inadvertently introduce or can these things just develop from within or both? Not familiar with algae scrubber... Is it a must have for FOLR tank? My questions seem endless. I actually had a marine tank 25 years ago but either so much has changed or I can't remember anything!
Thanks for the welcoming! I feel the veins filling with salt.... Again.
As for the QT just know this filtration needs to be as good as your DT (for one fish at a time). Supplies to have ready, refractor meter, batch of salt water all ready mixed up, fresh RO water enough to lower QT down to 1.009 in 48 hours, Ameqel plus or prime and test kits.

 

[rubin88]

hello i just started my fo tank about a week ago and three or four days i added some dassmel fish and a day ago 1 diead and 1 of them at the bottom why do think is wrong .
i am new to this.

 

[brun67]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rubin88 http:///t/392777/cycle-question-and-a-couple-others#post_3490491
hello i just started my fo tank about a week ago and three or four days i added some dassmel fish and a day ago 1 diead and 1 of them at the bottom why do think is wrong .
i am new to this.
well, hi there, umm first off have you checked the params at all??
thats most likely your cause....
Any more details? like how much sand, how much rock, size of tank. etc...

 

[aquiman]

As for QT is there a quide to follow on what you need to do from start to finish to set up the QT and how to go about quarantining a fish until its ready for DT or am I making it more complicated than it should be? Mr. Limpid, perhaps I'm on my way... I am putting finishing touches on my new RO set up. I have the RODI filter feeding two 32G Brute containers, 1 for salt mixing and 1 for storing RO for evaporation. The unfortunate thing is its nowhere near my DT so instead of pumping, I'l be humping 5 G containers up/down stairs and across the house.
Question on dwarf flame angel. I know they are peaceful but after about a week in the tank, most of the day he is hiding in rock and seldom venturing out. Havent really seen him eat much other than some occaising picking. Looks very healthy so Is this normal with newbies in the tank until they get comfortable or can I expect this beauty it be invisible?
Thanks all.

 

[geridoc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquiman http:///t/392777/cycle-question-and-a-couple-others#post_3490516
As for QT is there a quide to follow on what you need to do from start to finish to set up the QT and how to go about quarantining a fish until its ready for DT or am I making it more complicated than it should be? Mr. Limpid, perhaps I'm on my way... I am putting finishing touches on my new RO set up. I have the RODI filter feeding two 32G Brute containers, 1 for salt mixing and 1 for storing RO for evaporation. The unfortunate thing is its nowhere near my DT so instead of pumping, I'l be humping 5 G containers up/down stairs and across the house.
Question on dwarf flame angel. I know they are peaceful but after about a week in the tank, most of the day he is hiding in rock and seldom venturing out. Havent really seen him eat much other than some occaising picking. Looks very healthy so Is this normal with newbies in the tank until they get comfortable or can I expect this beauty it be invisible?
Thanks all.
Don't make the QT-thing too complicated. I use a 20 gallon long that contains 2 pieces of PVC T-tubing (a 4 inch diameter piece and a 1 1/2) and a heater. Filtration is a HOB filter (I don't remember what model, but it is a relatively small one). I keep a wad of filtration material in the sump of my DT, and when I have a new fish I transfer the filter material into the HOB. I then drain the QT and refill it with water from the DT. I figure why adapt the newbie to QT water, then have to go through the whole thing again in a few weeks. When there is a resident in the QT I change 2-3 gallons weekly, using DT water. I don't treat prophylactically for ich, some do. I just hold the fish in the QT for 4-6 weeks and if it comes down with ich I use hyposalinity. I am thinking about using an anti-internal parasite treatment routinely, but haven't made up mymind yet. I know it is frustrating to have a great new fish, only to have it in isolation and not in my DT, but, trust me, time is your friend in this hobby, and nothing good happens quickly. I always have Amquel Plus on hand, and monitor ammonium levels several times/week and use Amquel if there are any detectable levels.
Don't worry about the flame angel - they are a little shy but as soon as it figures out that you are the source of all that good food that falls from the sky it will become friendly. New fish frequently need some time to get comfortable with new fishy friends and new territories. As long as nobody is picking on the angel it will emerge from the rockwork after a few weeks.

 

[bubblegurl]

How is everything doing in your DT now? How about a full tank shot (fts)? Would love to see this little ocean you've got going on

My understanding of a new QT tank is that it also needs to cycle. I set up an emergency hospital tank last year and it failed miserably. I was receiving great help from someone here, but needless to say, it didn't work out. Hopefully someone will let you know if it does or not.

 

[aquiman]

Thx Geridoc... That's very helpful. Per bubblegurl post did you cycle QT? Do you alway have it going or only fire it up when you plan to buy new critters? Is pvc for hiding? No substrate?
Bubblegurl, I'm happy to post pics but not sure how on this site. Can I put them in this thread? If so, any idea how from an iPad? Or do I have to go on pc to somehow pullem in? As for DT, all fish still doing really well! Knocking on wood! I'm really happy!:laughing: