cycled again

[deblin2]

This is not really a new tank, but in a way it is. I have never gotten it stabilized. I have posted before and had a couple of people walk me through getting it stablilized but now it is having problems again. I was told that I had too many filters on the tank and that as much live rock and sand that I had to take them all off. I did that. Sure enough ammonia and nitrite disappeared within a couple of days. One person told me to leave the filter media out and use the filters just to circulate the water and another told me to put filter media in one filter and wash it out every week. Since my tank was doing so well, I left the media completely out (don't fix what isn't broke method) After about a week and a half I did a water change to get the nitrates back down. I was going to add the clean up crew I was told to put in after that, but I had another ammonia spike. So I decided to try the other person's advice and put the filter media back in. It is still in the middle of a cycle. The only thing I can think of is that I did siphon off algea from my rocks to get rid of it. I tried to do it gently so none was floating around the aquarium. There was very little. Would that cause my problem? So what do I do now? This tank just keeps going throug mini cycles.
38 gallon aquarium
1 aquaclear filter with media
1 millenium filter without media for circulation
2 power heads for circulation
1 protein skimmer
40 lbs sand was live but everything has died out of it.
35 (about) lbs of live rock (critters have all died out because of
the mini cycles)
2 percula clowns
1 mean dottyback
1 heater
I appreciate all the help you can give me.

 

[alti]

i think the best thing for you to do is just leave the tank alone. you really dont want to be changing filters and doing water changes before your tank is stable. it may seem like the cycle is taking forever, but you only have to do this once and then its over. what are you ammonia,nitrite and nitrate levels now and how long have you been cycling?

 

[deblin2]

You have to admit that 4 years is an awfully long time. I did finally get the ammonia and nitrite down to 0 for quite a while, but the nitrate was off the scale. I finally recently got the nitrate down real low, but then I added a fish and the ammonia and nitrite spiked back up. I got the ammonia and nitrite back down to 0 and began lowering the nitrate again with water changes and then the ammonia and nitrite spiked back up again. As of right now the ammonia is 2, nitrite is 2 and nitrate is about 60. So where do I go from here. I really don't think I am overfeeding. I just cut off a little tiny piece off the corner of one of the blocks. It is about the size of one of those sewing pins with the round plastic heads.

 

[alti]

4 years? get a new test kit. your probably using the same one you started the tank with. unless you are spraying your tank with ammonia, or lying about your setup there is no way a tank can cycle for 4 years.

 

[fshhub]

alti, there definitely is something wrong here, but I doubt it is only the kit, this person has been battling the problem and loosing livestock as well for the 4 years,. So soemthing is surely amiss.
See if we can't come up with any reasonig to help out, it would surely be appreciated I am sure.

 

[alti]

fshhub,i thought this person was joking with me.
sorry if i was rude deblin.
there has got to be something you are doing wrong on a consistent basis. something must be killing the nitrifying bacteria before it has time to establish itself.
1. r u using tap water or ro water for water changes?
2.are you dosing anything?
3. im not familiar with your filtration. how much gph do your filters claim to circulate?
4.did you buy the live rock from a store or was it second hand?
5. where in the house is your tank located?

 

[fshhub]

you said how much you feed, now how often?
and is someone still helping you and feeding more that you are not aware of?
anohtert thing, is there anybody that lives with you that may be spiteful?(just have to ask, since we can't find anything else)
what did you do to get it stable?
and how long was it stable and how long to get it stable?
next, what have you done recently taht may have caused it to spike again?
do you still clean the substrate? and what substrate is it? i forget
how often do you clean your skimmer and how bad is it when you do?
also, do not eget me wrong, alti may have a point that may help some, did you try a new test kit, althoguh i am sure this is not the problem you had, it could be giving you false readings now and your water may be stable(wouldn't that be nice) What type of test kit is it?
and another thing, what all do you do for maintenance> still?

 

[alti]

hey fshhub,
do you think a lack of oxygen in the water could stunt the bacterial growth? it would explain the dying livestock as well.

 

[fshhub]

not sure, but from what i have seen here, i would be willing to investigate anything, as i am sure deblin would as well.
one thing i will say is that adding filters may cause a mini cycle, one the tank stabilizes, if you add filters, it needs to colonize them with bacteria whihc may cause a spike, as would the process of removing them too. when doing so, if possible it should be done gradually over weeks or months, JMO
vaccuming or stirring debris up could also do the same, if nay gets free floating.

 

[deblin2]

Let's see if I can remember all the questions.
1. I feed once a day. Noone feeds them except me now. No it was not spiteful. The only person here is my 78 yr. old mother and she was just trying to help. We have that problem fixed now though.
2. The tank is in my livingroom
3. I have gone through more test kits than I can count. I have used the tablets and the strips just to check. I have also had it tested at the lfs.
4. I use water run through a tap water purifier. I have tested that water and my tap water and it tested out 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite,0 nitrate.
5. I don't put in anything except ammonia lock
6. I bought the rock from lfs.
7. I did have a hang on canister filter with just carbon, a millenium 2000 with carbon insert and the grid for bacteria, and aqua clear with carbon and sponge filter. I was in the middle of another cycle(which happened when I added a fish) and fshhub told me I had too many filters and to go ahead and take them all off since my water couldn't be any worse. Someone else advised to leave carbon and sponge in aquaclear and wash it out weekly with hot water. I took everything off and by the next day my water was perfect except for nitrate being high. I left it for about 2 weeks and was told to do a water change and add a clean up crew. I did the water change to get nitrates down and had another ammonia spike. I never did get to add the clean up crew. If I add a fish, do a water change, replace filters, or do anything it causes a minicycle. I then decided maybe I did need to put the carbon and sponge in to catch debris. When I did the water change I did syphon off a lot of algea off the rocks but I was very careful to get as little floating around in the water as possible.
8. I got it halfway stable by not touching it. The nitrates were way off the charts though. It stayed stable as long as there were no water changes, no fish added, no filters cleaned.
9. The last four months my lfs told me to change out 5 gallons a week to get the nitrate down. I did that and it worked. My readings were all good. No ammonia or nitrite either. When I added a fish I was in trouble again.
10. I do not touch the sand now. I have been very careful not to stir it up. I used the sand that is supposed to have the bacteria in it to help cycle the tank. It comes in a bag with a little water in it.
11. I added two powerheads when fshhub told me to. The fish loved that.
12. I am not really sure how much the filters circulate. The millenium does not have any filter media in it. It is used just to circulate the water.
13. I clean the protein skimmer about once a month. I just recently cleaned it and it hasn't had anything in the collection cup (about 2 days). I was advised to clean it regularly so I made sure I did a good job. I usually have to empty the cup about twice a week.
14. As far as maintence now, I clean the skimmer, do a 5 gallon water change a week, make sure the intake tubes of the filters are clean. I guess I will need to wash the carbon and sponge filter out weekly after the tank has finished or should I take the filters back out? I haven't had them in there very long. I was trying to get by without it since fshhub said it was possible. I clean the glass top with a clean rag and plain water.
I really would appreciate the help. I love my tank but it gets really discouraging.

 

[alti]

deblin,
how often do you top off and do water changes and do you add the ammo lock to the top off water?im no chemist, but does anyone think it could have something to do with the ammo lock? it is supposed to change ammonia into a non toxic form. i know it says on the aquarium pharm. website that it will be consumed by the nitrifying bacteria, but they say alot of things that their products are supposed to do and really dont. i know im reaching pretty far here(please dont flame me), but is there any way that when the ammo lock is introduced it is changing the ammonia in the tank into something that is harder for the beneficial bacteria to consume and thus starving it?

 

[deblin2]

I think you may have something. I really don't need it as long as I am not using pure tap water with the cholrine in it. You are right about products not doing what they are supposed to. That is definitely food for thought. I will stop using it and see what happens. It can't hurt and it might help. I just used it thinking it would help my fish with these ammonia spikes.
I usually have to top off with a gallon a week of fresh water. At certain times maybe 2 gallons, but that is not very often.
I don't see why anyone should flame you for an idea. If we keep throwing ideas back and forth we will eventually find something that works. Thank you for taking the time to help. I never could figure out how an ammonia spike could be caused by a water change, but that might explain it. I even tested the water before I put it in. The water tested out fine.

 

[fshhub]

So, waht I am getting is taht it was fine, and doing well, then you did the water change and added the filters. is this right?
If so, it may be safe to say that it is something happening when you do the change. Maybe the water, maybe the additives you aer using, maybe the way you clean and vaccuum. But not using the filters did yo well, now, addidng them may have only compounded it bc the bacteria needs to grow on them and this in itself will cause spike in many instances, I would try again, without them(like I said, you may want to remove them gradually)). And see if we cannot pinpoint what is going on at the time you do the change, from the sounds of things, this would be an excellent place to start at.

 

[deblin2]

The filters were put on the aquarium when I first set it up. When I was in the middle of the ammonia spike you suggested I go ahead and take all of them off since it couldn't get much worse. I did that and it cleared up within a couple of days. I did leave the filters on to circulate the water, but there was no filter media in any of them at that time. I had another ammonia spike so I put carbon and the sponge filter back in one of the filters. The other filter does not have anything in it. It just circulates water. I did a water change and had another ammonia spike. What do I need to do first. Do I remove the filters completely or leave them on without the filter media and let them just circualte the water? Do I remove both the sponge and the carbon out of that one filter or one at a time? If one at a time which one first? My ammonia and nitrite levels should be back to 0 by tomorrow. There might be just a trace left today. Do I need to just leave it alone for a little while? Do I need to add the clean up crew to help? The nitrates will eventually need to be brought back down, but I probably need to wait until the rest of it is stable before I worry about that. Let me know. Thanks

 

[fshhub]

I myself, jsut for kicks, would go ahead and remove them
and (here is the kick) do my next water change(after stable again), without vaccuuming or cleaning anything at all. And use different water, buy som. JUST FOR KICKS, and try that, and see what happens. Only do about a 20% change.
Hey, like i said last time, what can it hurt. Things really can't get worse for you. And if there is a chance taht it wil help, I say try it. If you can get it straightend out, you will find this so much more rewarding and less frustrating, IAM SURE.

 

[deblin2]

Do you mean remove the carbon and the sponge or remove both filters from the aquarium completely? I was just wondering -- what do you do when you move rock or get things stirred up a little? How do you get the debris out without filters? Do you just wait and let it settle back down? I know you are supposed to try to not stir up anything, but things happen. I have seen them do it in lfs trying to catch the fish.

 

[fshhub]

you try not to, but when it does happen, i just let it settle again(leave the skimmer on to remove the junk that stirs up)

 

[deblin2]

Do you mean remove the sponge and carbon or remove the whole filter? There is just water cirulating through one filtler and if I take all the media out of the other I will have one on each side that just circulates water.

 

[fshhub]

yep. All you need is circualtion with a skimmer and dsb, it works great. Add to that LR and you have the ingredients for a nice tank.

 

[deblin2]

o.k. Thanks