Cycling Questions... a little unsure??

mama3tankhappy

mama3tankhappy

New Member
My boyfriend and I have started 140 gallon saltwater tank. Its been cycling for 2weeks and the ammonia is right where it needs to be the nitrite and nitrate are a little high as well as the ph. So my question is: Is it safe to add fish yet? or is it smart to just let it finish its cycling process??
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
At this point you are probably so ready to get something in your tank... BUT.... it's better if you wait until the tank has completely finished cycling. I suggest going ahead and ghost feed your tank for a week or so - add a little food to the tank each day like you are feeding your first fish. At the end of the week, test your ammonia and nitrite to see if they are at zero. If that's the case, do a small water change to remove some nitrates before adding your first fish.
Good luck! Welcome to the hobby and to the forums! I hope you enjoy your stay.
 
deejeff442

deejeff442

Active Member
snake is almost right on...what do you mean the ammonia is where it needs to be? ammonia is the worst of the 3. fish can tolerate nitrates and nitrites but not ammonia. do not add fish or anything if you get any ammonia readings.this means the cycle is not done. nitrates are very hard to get to zero.imo if you have no ammonia,nitrite and some(20-60) nitrates .you are good to go
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
the ammonia is right where it needs to be
What do you mean by this?
Quote:
If that's the case, do a small water change to remove some nitrates
I totally disagree with this; you need nitrates to feed anaerobic bacteria for dinitrification without adequate food (nitrates) you will never have a fully natural nitrification dinitrification cycle
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Excessive amounts of nitrates left over from cycling can cause algae outbreaks and cyanobacteria. A small water change will reduce but not eliminate nitrates.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/395218/cycling-questions-a-little-unsure#post_3518293
Excessive amounts of nitrates left over from cycling can cause algae outbreaks and cyanobacteria. A small water change will reduce but not eliminate nitrates.
Snake, I always did a small water change after the first cycle as well.
Joe, I THOUGHT the nitrates were the end of the cycle process and useless. 0 nitrates are the goal for an SPS coral tank, so how can nitrates be any use to keep the cycle going? I THOUGHT that the fish poop and food gets lost, and left over in the rocks. We keep serpent stars and other CUC critters to help eliminate the waste. However there is still the ammonia, which is kept in check by the good bacteria, another good bacteria keeps nitrites in check...it all becomes nitrates in the end, and since we can't get the nitrates to turn to harmless gas fast enough, we remove the excess by doing small water changes.
I keep emphasizing the word THOUGHT, because I have learned a long time ago, just because I think so... does not mean I'm right. I'm forever learning in this hobby. So could you please be kind enough to explain what you mean in " dummy down" terminology? I don't understand professor speak.
Oh and Mama3tankhappy...Welcome to the site!
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Flower, joe is stating that without some nitrates for anaerobic bacteria to break down, you wont have a natural system.
Anaerobic bacteria are those that live in the absence of oxygen, such as in the sandbed and deep within live rock.
Even when we do water changes and everything we can to eliminate nitrates and phosphates, there is still enough to support anaerobic activity.
Also, there are fully functioning systems that have barebottoms and very little in the way or rock or anaerobic zones. How can you explain the health and growth of the corals in those systems?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/395218/cycling-questions-a-little-unsure#post_3518310
Flower, joe is stating that without some nitrates for anaerobic bacteria to break down, you wont have a natural system.
Anaerobic bacteria are those that live in the absence of oxygen, such as in the sandbed and deep within live rock.
Even when we do water changes and everything we can to eliminate nitrates and phosphates, there is still enough to support anaerobic activity.
Also, there are fully functioning systems that have barebottoms and very little in the way or rock or anaerobic zones. How can you explain the health and growth of the corals in those systems?
Natural system???? When I had my reef, I ran a GFO/carbon duel reactor....then got the Aquaripure nitrate filter after trying the vodka thing, switched to a sump so I could have a monster skimmer and not have a canister (declared a nitrate factory)...all to not have any nitrates whatsoever. What is natural about all that? I just wanted my corals to grow and look awesome.
Are you saying corals "need" nitrates? LOL, I thought nitrates was the "poop" of the good bacteria. I thought the next stage of nitrates was a harmless gas to be released into the air. However since a fish tank can't process nitrates fast enough into a harmless gas...we did water changes to help it along. Am I wrong?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/395218/cycling-questions-a-little-unsure#post_3518323
Natural system???? When I had my reef, I ran a GFO/carbon duel reactor....then got the Aquaripure nitrate filter after trying the vodka thing, switched to a sump so I could have a monster skimmer and not have a canister (declared a nitrate factory)...all to not have any nitrates whatsoever. What is natural about all that? I just wanted my corals to grow and look awesome.
Are you saying corals "need" nitrates? LOL, I thought nitrates was the "poop" of the good bacteria. I thought the next stage of nitrates was a harmless gas to be released into the air. However since a fish tank can't process nitrates fast enough into a harmless gas...we did water changes to help it along. Am I wrong?
I think what my fellow mansapiens are saying here Deb, is simply that poop makes the whole thing go round. Without it there would be no beneficial stuff trying to consume it and break it down. Different bacteria play different functions in the nitrogen cycle by breaking down the ammonia to trites to trates and then a gas which is not necessarily harmless. This is why you see folks saying not to cover their tanks to block that exchange. And why we need good flow and surface agitation to promote the exchange of gas into the atmosphere. Too much gas drops oxygen levels in the tank.
We humans in all our infinite wisdom try to take mother natures creation and stuff it into little boxes that work for us and have come up with all sorts of creative ways to try and maintain suitable levels in thee endeavor. While mother nature scoffs at us and snickers in amusement all the while.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
2quills, i do believe nitrogen gas is harmless. The atmosphere is roughly 73% nitrogen gas.
We dont put tops on our tanks so that we have gas exchange, your right. But its because we want to limit the amount of CO2 in the water column, which creates carbonic acid which in turn lowers the pH. Not so much so that nitrogen gas can escape.
There is nothing natural about our tanks. Any way you look at it. We hqve to use equipment that can as closely as possible replicate nature, but nature has us beat 100% of the time.
All in all, its best to find your own personal methods for maintaining your tanks health over time. What works for one person sometimes doesnt work for everybody else.
Cheers.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
You're right, Snake. I had my gases mixed up. Glad the ejumucation is paying off for ya my friend.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
2quills, its all good brotha.
I just recently learned that myself. It wasnt because of school either. Bang Guy taught me that and i also did additional research on the subject. Just wanted you to know what i found out. :)
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Flower dear heart, first things first. How have you made out is your quest for help in maintaining your tank?
Now on to the fun stuff.
Nitrates are not the end of the nitrogen cycle process (we all know that the cycle must not end but anyway) nitrates are eliminated via anaerobic bacteria turning them into gas, assimilation via higher forms of algae and massive water changes just to mention a few. Now I have to ask do you have a nitrate problem. If so what are your readings that make you consider them to be a problem. IMO if you are dealing with nitrates by doing frequent water changes you are wasting money and time and energy. You are no pun intended just treading water. Why not try a natural way. Now I believe snake ran or runs an algae scrubber that’s a natural way of assimilation. Another is the growth of anaerobic bacteria. Now the growth of this bacteria is predicated on many factors the porosity of the rock the speed of advection and the amount of food (nitrates presented). The amount of organic waste product produced when we initially start the cycle is no were near large enough to cause a nitrate problem let alone a cyano problem. Now since the anaerobic bacteria need nitrates to colonize and expand why would we want to out compete with those bacteria by physically removing it via a water change no matter how small?
Now snake states that “Even when we do water changes and everything we can to eliminate nitrates and phosphates, there is still enough to support anaerobic activity.” I must ask support it to what extent. Is it not our goal to have anaerobic bacteria growth to the extent that it tanks can or the nitrates produced And I must ask him how often does he do water changes and what is his nitrate readings. Natural removal or assimilation of nitrates goes on 24/7.I Do not know any hobbyist that preforms water changes so frequent that as a singular method of nitrate removal they maintain zero or near zero readings so why not allow nature to help you by cultivating anaerobic bacteria and not out competing it by removing it initially.
Now I certainly could not allow this quote by snake to go without comment” Also, there are fully functioning systems that have bare bottoms and very little in the way or rock or anaerobic zones. How can you explain the health and growth of the corals in those systems?”
I mean bare bottoms what would be better.
Let’s start way back when hobbyists came up with the idea of a natural system utilizing live rock and live substratum for filtration. Now the problem arose when hobbyist felt that detritus trapped in the sand or gravel would cause unwanted consequences. One very easy solution would be to remove the sand or gravel and go “BARE BOTTOM” this would make vacuuming the unwanted detritus very easy. But what about the natural nitrification and dinitrification. Having live rock on the bottom is certainly not a bare bottom. The idea was hatched to attach wire to the live rock and suspend the rock about the bottom of the tank. Now you could have natural bio filtration and ease of maintenance. Worked great, looked like S--t .now let’s fast forward. I personally do not know any hobbyist that runs a fully functioning bare bottom system as snake does. I can bet one thing for sure these systems have sumps and or a refugium loaded with live rock and or higher forms of algae to deal with their nitrates most likely some also use algae scrubbers. I can also bet that they do not rely only on on water changes .
I guess what I am saying getting back to my original thought of not doing a water change when starting up a tank is as one of my good friend Henrys favorite group the Beatles once said. ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE NITRATES A CHANCE”
truth be told i did not proffread this so please point out corrections that need to be made
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama3tankhappy http:///t/395218/cycling-questions-a-little-unsure#post_3518246
My boyfriend and I have started 140 gallon saltwater tank. Its been cycling for 2weeks and the ammonia is right where it needs to be the nitrite and nitrate are a little high as well as the ph. So my question is: Is it safe to add fish yet? or is it smart to just let it finish its cycling process??
Seems like this would be a perfect time to get your fish and other livestock list together and to establish a QT tank for incoming livestock.
Make sure the fish you want will play nice with the other fish and other living things.
Will this be a reef tank with corals or a Fish only with live rock tank?
 
mama3tankhappy

mama3tankhappy

New Member
All of you have been helpful, I appreciate it :)
Next question lol:
When it's time for a water change,how much water change for a 140 gallon tank and how often??
 
deejeff442

deejeff442

Active Member
all depends on how frequent.if you do a weekly10%.bi-weekley 15-20% monthly 20-25%.more often is better.but all of us long time people even slack at times
 
mama3tankhappy

mama3tankhappy

New Member
all depends on how frequent.if you do a weekly10%.bi-weekley 15-20% monthly 20-25%.more often is better.but all of us long time people even slack at times
Ok thank you. We'll most likely do it bi-weekly :)
 
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