Cynobacteria Problem

[clsimons29]

Well another thread on cynobacteria :scared: I have read several of the post on the boards and read articles on the net and books. Here is my prams & what I have done & such. see thread in photography "Homers new tank diary" for pics & such.
Equipment:
Tank: 60"x20"x36"h
Running PFO ballast 2 400WMH -XM 10k, 2 96w blue PC & LED moonlights. blues on for 1 hr then off and MH kick on for 4 hours, blues kick back on w/MHs for 4 hours, MHs kick off blues run for 3 hours, then moonlights for remaining time. everything is running on coralife dual timer system. Note: cyno was spreading even when I was running 7-8 hrs on, rest off.
2 little giant pumps MDOQ4 & MDOQ3- one running water back from sump and second running canister filter.
Large sump w/bioballs and in sump skimmer -coralife limewood driven - 9W Coralife twist UV filter.
Nuclear canister filter w/bulkhead intake at center of tank underneath sand, water comes out two PVC tubes behind my LR. digital temp monitor - adding 1/3 hp chiller/heater/UV combo in next couple of months. Been having trouble keeping temp constant +-3-4 degree over 24hours. Tank is appox 5 mths old.
see diary post for diagram & flow chart , UV & fuge not listed (new)
Currently have about 140lbs LR, mix of agronite and LS.
Have 12"x6"x4" in tank refugium driven by rio powerhead.
Stock:
3 blue chromis
1 med Blue hippo tang
+-50 turbos & nassasuirus snails
+-50 blue leg hermits
1 arrow crab
1 green brittle star
1 giant cup mushroom
1 Hatian pink tip anemone
1 green recordia
Pulsing Xenia
1 feather duster
mushroom polyp colony
1 green plate corol
All stock is healthy and wealthy
Prams - Hagen test kit - if not noted pram is at 0
Nitrate - 5 ppm
PH 8.5
Phosphates - almost 0 color slightly off 0
KH 150
Ca ranges from 350-400ppm supplement daily w/agramilk drip.
salinity -1.22, 30 SPG
I use only RO water in my tank that I pre-mix in 40G batches and age at least 48 hours.
What I have done:
Two large +25% water changes over last month, weekly 10% water changes. Syphoned cyno off sand and blew off rocks, doing this every other day now. Stir part of my sand bed daily. Clean ******** of tank walls daily with Kent pro scraper and pad. Using Kent Poly-Ox twice day as recomended, Skimmer has gone into hyper mode and have todrain twice daily w/Urin color water & dark sludge. Have film algea growing on tank walls but no hair algea prob. I have also checked my flow and seem to have it most everywhere and have directed PHs directly on cyno areas to little benefit.
Having done this the dang cyno grows back quickly and can seem to cover a cleaned patch of sand in 24hrs?????
I'm getting really frustrated with this and at a loss of what to do beside cutting my lights off for 72 hours and seeing what happens but I am concerned about my corals. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

 

[laddy]

What do you think your turn over in water volume in the tank is?

 

[rusting]

Originally Posted by clsimons29
Well another thread on cynobacteria :scared: I have read several of the post on the boards and read articles on the net and books. Here is my prams & what I have done & such. see thread in photography "Homers new tank diary" for pics & such.
Equipment:
Tank: 60"x20"x36"h
Running PFO ballast 2 400WMH -XM 10k, 2 96w blue PC & LED moonlights. blues on for 1 hr then off and MH kick on for 4 hours, blues kick back on w/MHs for 4 hours, MHs kick off blues run for 3 hours, then moonlights for remaining time. everything is running on coralife dual timer system. Note: cyno was spreading even when I was running 7-8 hrs on, rest off.
2 little giant pumps MDOQ4 & MDOQ3- one running water back from sump and second running canister filter.
Large sump w/bioballs and in sump skimmer -coralife limewood driven - 9W Coralife twist UV filter.
Nuclear canister filter w/bulkhead intake at center of tank underneath sand, water comes out two PVC tubes behind my LR. digital temp monitor - adding 1/3 hp chiller/heater/UV combo in next couple of months. Been having trouble keeping temp constant +-3-4 degree over 24hours. Tank is appox 5 mths old.
see diary post for diagram & flow chart , UV & fuge not listed (new)
Currently have about 140lbs LR, mix of agronite and LS.
Have 12"x6"x4" in tank refugium driven by rio powerhead.
Stock:
3 blue chromis
1 med Blue hippo tang
+-50 turbos & nassasuirus snails
+-50 blue leg hermits
1 arrow crab
1 green brittle star
1 giant cup mushroom
1 Hatian pink tip anemone
1 green recordia
Pulsing Xenia
1 feather duster
mushroom polyp colony
1 green plate corol
All stock is healthy and wealthy
Prams - Hagen test kit - if not noted pram is at 0
Nitrate - 5 ppm
PH 8.5
Phosphates - almost 0 color slightly off 0
KH 150
Ca ranges from 350-400ppm supplement daily w/agramilk drip.
salinity -1.22, 30 SPG
I use only RO water in my tank that I pre-mix in 40G batches and age at least 48 hours.
What I have done:
Two large +25% water changes over last month, weekly 10% water changes. Syphoned cyno off sand and blew off rocks, doing this every other day now. Stir part of my sand bed daily. Clean ******** of tank walls daily with Kent pro scraper and pad. Using Kent Poly-Ox twice day as recomended, Skimmer has gone into hyper mode and have todrain twice daily w/Urin color water & dark sludge. Have film algea growing on tank walls but no hair algea prob. I have also checked my flow and seem to have it most everywhere and have directed PHs directly on cyno areas to little benefit.
Having done this the dang cyno grows back quickly and can seem to cover a cleaned patch of sand in 24hrs?????
I'm getting really frustrated with this and at a loss of what to do beside cutting my lights off for 72 hours and seeing what happens but I am concerned about my corals. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

Good water flow and weekly water changes of 25% will go a long way, Always use RO/DI water, and cut back on feeding. You can add 2 small power heads, and pipe them down to get more flow on the bottom of your tank. If you have CC weekly vacuuming is a good idea

 

[whylde]

Seahare's eat both algae and cyano.....we call ours seasnot, lol......

 

[rot_stupid]

We used the red slime remover and it was gone within two days. We tried everything to get rid of it. Weekly water changes, vaccumed it out and it came back hours later. I recommend the red slime remover.

 

[rusting]

Originally Posted by rot_stupid
We used the red slime remover and it was gone within two days. We tried everything to get rid of it. Weekly water changes, vaccumed it out and it came back hours later. I recommend the red slime remover.

That may fix it for now, but nothing works better than good tank maintenance.

 

[clsimons29]

I appreciate everyones comments, I went to Lubbock, TX today and visted their LFS - was very nice place and picked up some Boyds chema clean and put it in tonight, I Have also turned my lights off for the weekend and will update in 48hrs on results.
Laddy: LG 3mdqx running canister is 1/15hp @ 1,100gph
LG 4mdqx running sump is 1/10 hp @ 1,325 gph
Rio powerhead in refugium is +- 300gph. I'd figure I'm getting between about 15-20 times turnover every hour

 

[laddy]

How long has this tank been up? You're still reading nitrates?

 

[clsimons29]

Originally Posted by Laddy
How long has this tank been up? You're still reading nitrates?
Tank has been up over 5 months, cyno started out as a small patch and was mistaken for coraline growth, once I got my lights on it bloomed out. Nitrates are reading at or below 5 ppm at last test, Nitites & amonia @ 0, KH 150, PH 8.5 got a new buffer today for this, Calcium running +-350 range been dripping agra-milk & purchased Purple up today.

 

[sonnyg]

get under your tank and look up....... cyano on a sand bed grows to the bottom of the sand... where the cyano is you will see a black spot. if its growing from the sand and not rock just vacuming the top of the sand doesnt get rid of it.... after you get it gone remember tank maint and good water flow is the key. very rarely will you get cyano where there is flow, only in dead areas of your tank............ just a thought

 

[dejaco]

Hey for flow rates - the pumps running other things don't matter - want to know just water movement in the display tank. Usually by redirecting return(s) and powerheads so flow moves more water across sand cyano will go away. I battled with it from the 4 - 6 month period of tank set up and when I increased the turnover rate to 24X all cyaono and hair algae problems disappeared.

 

[laddy]

Originally Posted by clsimons29
Tank has been up over 5 months, cyno started out as a small patch and was mistaken for coraline growth, once I got my lights on it bloomed out. Nitrates are reading at or below 5 ppm at last test, Nitites & amonia @ 0, KH 150, PH 8.5 got a new buffer today for this, Calcium running +-350 range been dripping agra-milk & purchased Purple up today.
Don't use the purple up, your just adding to the problem. You'll get coraline growth once your tank stabalizes and you maintain elevated dKH/Ca levels. Five months is a young tank. You're just going through a normal cyano bloom if you want my opinion.....which really isn't a problem however you have stocked the tank with corals which won't appreciate it. Stop stirring the sand bed, do your water changes weekly, keep the turn over rate in your tank high (especially at the waters surface), keep your photo period to a minimum, and keep feedings to a minimum.

 

[pyroreef]

use phosphate remover frequent water changes nitrate remover red slimed remove u may want some sand sifting cucumbers, sand sifting stars, white nassarius snails a sea hare, and some red leged hermit crabs thgat will help kee the cyanobacteria down and the star and ccumber will keep ur sand clean as will the white nassarius snails dont get black ones cause they can get agressive. the sea hare will eat both hair algae slime algea cyano bacteria and some othe algaes

 

[mudplayerx]

Let's slow things down a bit. You probably don't want more than one sand-sifting cucumber, since the typical one is around 6 inches long and needs a 55 gallon tank for itself (they grow larger). It also requires a specific sandbed with grains around 1-2mm in diameter.
Sand sifting stars are not reef safe. They will consume all of the beneficial critters in your sandbed, which could possibly lead to even more cyano.
The sea hare is great for eating algae, but make sure that you have enough algae to sustain its diet. It needs massive amounts of algae and will need supplementary sheets of algae before long.
These statements are based on my knowledge of the animals mentioned. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to offer your opinion

ps - It is also my opinion that weekly 25% water changes are horribly stressful on marine life. This large of a water change this frequuently should be reserved for emergency maintainance only, and I don't think cyano is that much cause for alarm.
What brand of phosphate test are you using? If you are using a color-coded test, you may be getting inconclusive results. You need a test that utilizes an indicator solution with only two color changes (for instance blue to pink). The test kits like Red Sea that have different shades of the same color and require you to match them to a color chart are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[clsimons29]

Well I have been working on my tank all afternoon and I'm happy to report that all of the cyno is gone. I used the red slime remover which seemed to help and just completed a 40 gallon water change and some major scrubbing. I also removed part of the fake reef as that is where the cyno began and where it was always the most prevalent. I believe that the fake corals ended up being a dietrus trap and contributed to the problem. I am still going to cut my light schedule to about 3 hours and build back up from there so I don't see a recurrent bloom from anything that was missed. I will also continue my weekly water change schedule. As far as my reading I'm at 0 phosphates & less than 5 ppm nitrates.
Okay now for the things that didn't go so great through this process;
In taking out the fake reef I managed to scrape up my blue tang pretty bad and he is hurt but still swimming and hopefully he is not a floater in the morning. I also managed to forget to put the power head connectors on the return from my sump and was looking around stupidly at where the water was coming from before I realized it; my wife was so nice to bring the green machine to take the water out of the carpet for me. My condy anemone was MIA this afternoon and has yet to reappear, he was happily attached in one spot and ????. My canister filter is also clogged and is giving me trouble so have to call someone in to fix it. I hope this is the last time I have to deal with cyno on this scale but
at least all of this has been a learning experience.
Thanks for the help.

 

[nemo_66]

sorry to bringg this back from the older posts. wouldn't having 24x flow mess up your sand? i only have 7x and it messed up my sand. ps. i also have a small cyno problem. im going to buy red slime remover.

 

[mudplayerx]

Originally Posted by Nemo_66
sorry to bringg this back from the older posts. wouldn't having 24x flow mess up your sand? i only have 7x and it messed up my sand. ps. i also have a small cyno problem. im going to buy red slime remover.
The overall flow rate should be 20-25x. This doesn't mean that all of the outlets should be pointed directly at the sand bed. Just position everything so that the water circulates evenly around the tank.
Put some flake food into the tank and see if the flakes settle anywhere or get "trapped" by a current and spin around in place. These are spots that should be fixed.

 

[crt81]

Fancy nassarius snails and fighting conches are great for destroying cyno.! I had a problem with it and as soon as I got the nass. snails and conch it cleared up the problem right away!!! This is a cheap and easy way of riding the cyno. from your tank!!!

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by mudplayerx
The overall flow rate should be 20-25x. This doesn't mean that all of the outlets should be pointed directly at the sand bed. Just position everything so that the water circulates evenly around the tank.
Put some flake food into the tank and see if the flakes settle anywhere or get "trapped" by a current and spin around in place. These are spots that should be fixed.

I agree my turnover rate in my tank is about 30x and it doesnt disturb my sand bed at all.

 

[clsimons29]

I just now saw other people have posted since I last did, so I thought I would give an update for the heck of it. I have not seen a reoccurrence of the red cyno but I did go through a black cyno outbreak not long after, I did add a few more power heads to stir things up a bit more and as of this week it seems to have cleared up on its own, no more black stuff to be seen. As the black declined I started seeing brown flake algae? that likes to grow on the front of my tank for some reason, nowhere else; it is easy to scrape off though. I also removed part of the sand bed around my canister filter intake bulkhead and noticed quite an improvement, still work to do on it though. I have also added a bunch of new corals and fish since I wrote this and everything is going great. I even got a black ?clam? that hitchhiked on a piece of rock w/some yellow polyps seemed to grow up overnight - looks like the small black ones you get a mess of in a bucket at seafood restaurants. See my tank diary "homers new tank diary" for pics. Thanks again for everyone’s help.