Dead in almost 24 hours... WHY?

[theclemsonkid]

Is there some big secret about marine water that I missed along the way?
Example. After the initial cycle of the tank, I had a clown, coral beauty, strawberry psuedochromis, chocolate chip starfish, a cleaner shrimp, and two tangs (a gold rimmed and a yellow).
Over a six week period, all died. The cleaner shrimp made it about six hours before he was dead. Everything else lived about six weeks, then they all died, The tang first from ich, and then everything else from what I think was Brookynella. The starfish was the only one who we still have (and even he has lost two of his "chips" recently.
After they all died, I set up a QT, as well as let the DT go fallow for five weeks to make sure that all the diseases in the tank died.
Yesterday afternoon, I picked up a clown tang which I added to the new QT where I planned on keeping him for 4 weeks. I offered algae sheets, live food, and garlic... none of which he was interested in. Now this morning, he is breathing super hard, and looks to be on his way out sometime today from the looks of things.
We do water changes religiously, have ample filtration (An emperor 400 biowheel for a 55 gallon), three power heads, plenty of live rock and hiding places. The only form of testing I have is the "strips", which always tell me everything is good to ideal. The one time we took the water into the LFS so they could test it, they said the water was fine with the alkilinity a little high.
I just don't quite understand why everyone else seems to have so much success, especially these overcrowded LFS tanks, where the clown tang I just bought lived for a week, and then I get him home to a bigger, less crowded tank, and it looks like he is going to die in less than 48 hours.
It tells me there has to be something wrong with my water, but I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT!!!
I feel like just saying to hell with it, and not wasting anymore time and money, but I'm already too invested to just quit now.
If there are ANY suggestions, or something you can think of that I might be doing wrong, I would certainly appreciate it. Because my wife and I are really getting depressed by this, and are THIS CLOSE to selling the whole thing...
Thanks all
Jonathan

 

[spiderwoman]

How large is your tank and what are you water parameters?

 

[spiderwoman]

UGH I should have read your post a bit better You have a 55gallon and you had how many fish in there? How large were the fish and how soon after the cycle did you add them? Did you add them all at the same time or how often would you add new ones?
Please run to your LFS and get regular SW testing kits. The strips are NOT reliable at all.

 

[t316]

I knew there was going to be a shrimp involved with this just by reading the title

But what are the exact readings? Post all that you have

 

[mcbdz]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2467944
Is there some big secret about marine water that I missed along the way?
Example. After the initial cycle of the tank, I had a clown, coral beauty, strawberry psuedochromis, chocolate chip starfish, a cleaner shrimp, and two tangs (a gold rimmed and a yellow).
Over a six week period, all died. The cleaner shrimp made it about six hours before he was dead. Everything else lived about six weeks, then they all died, The tang first from ich, and then everything else from what I think was Brookynella. The starfish was the only one who we still have (and even he has lost two of his "chips" recently.
After they all died, I set up a QT, as well as let the DT go fallow for five weeks to make sure that all the diseases in the tank died.
Yesterday afternoon, I picked up a clown tang which I added to the new QT where I planned on keeping him for 4 weeks. I offered algae sheets, live food, and garlic... none of which he was interested in. Now this morning, he is breathing super hard, and looks to be on his way out sometime today from the looks of things.
We do water changes religiously, have ample filtration (An emperor 400 biowheel for a 55 gallon), three power heads, plenty of live rock and hiding places. The only form of testing I have is the "strips", which always tell me everything is good to ideal. The one time we took the water into the LFS so they could test it, they said the water was fine with the alkilinity a little high.
I just don't quite understand why everyone else seems to have so much success, especially these overcrowded LFS tanks, where the clown tang I just bought lived for a week, and then I get him home to a bigger, less crowded tank, and it looks like he is going to die in less than 48 hours.
It tells me there has to be something wrong with my water, but I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT!!!
I feel like just saying to hell with it, and not wasting anymore time and money, but I'm already too invested to just quit now.
If there are ANY suggestions, or something you can think of that I might be doing wrong, I would certainly appreciate it. Because my wife and I are really getting depressed by this, and are THIS CLOSE to selling the whole thing...
Thanks all
Jonathan

I'm sorry to here you are having such a rough go of it.
My suggestion is to slow down and take a deep breath. Now for starters, you are trying somethings that are not for beginners. Tangs are not beginner fish. And maybe going a little fast. Take your time and make a stock list you plan for your tank.
Add up all your GPH also ,and report back you total.
It is also important that you get the individual drop test kits. The strips are notorious for not being correct.
What is your SG?
How are you acclimating these new arrivals?
What type of water are you using for topoffs and w/c's?(tape or ro/di?
Do you have a clean up crew in there? and what is it?
Explain your cycle?How did you do it, how long did it take?
We'll figure out what's up. Just give us a little more info.

 

[theclemsonkid]

All I have are the strips. This is what they tell me:
Nitrate: around 10
Nitrites: 0
Total Alkalinity: The color on my strip is a dark blue, and the colors on the "scale" on the bottle are green. However if dark green and dark blue are the same, then 300ppm
pH: Between 7.8 and 8.4
That's all the information that the test strip gives me. I have no idea what the specific gravity is, because when I went to buy a hydrometer, the guy told me it was a waste of time to get one, because they are completely inaccurate. He said give me $89 and I will get you a refractometer. I didn't have the extra money at the time, so I never got around to it.
Other than that, its a 55 gallon, with a mixture of live rock and tufa rock about halfway up the tank (in the middle). More tufa than live rock. There is some coralline algae, and your basic glass algae. The temp is between 78 and 80 degrees. We do a 20% water change every two weeks.
As for the fish...
The two tangs were both very small, and they were in at separate times. (The yellow tang was immediately stressed so we traded him in after two days). For that six week period, I had a small gold rimmed tang, living with a strawberry psuedochromis, coral beauty, and a clown. They all got along fine, and it was all good until the tang got ich and died, and then within the same week, the other three were gone from what Im guessing was brookynella (they all had a whiteish slime covering them, and extremely faded color).
That's about all the info I have at the moment, I can't really think of anything else to add.
thanks
Jonathan

 

[sigmachris]

No hydrometer or refractometer to test saliinty is your problem. The salt needs to be precise and if you can't make it precise that is probably your killer. Yes hydrometeres are reported to be inaccurate, but being slightly off is better than potentially way off and not knowing it.
I got my refractometer yesterday, tested my tank and my fresh salt water. Both the hydro and refracto came out at 1.025. Other instances from people state the hyrometer is off my 0.004. Once again, you are mixing blind so who knows where you are at. Spend the $8 and get a hydrometer.

 

[spiderwoman]

I'd say change LFS's to start with You can get a refractomoter for almost half that from just about anywhere and it's is NOT waster of time nor money to get one.
The numbers for pH are far apart and you really need to know what it is.
Please do go and get a *real* test kit.
How do you acclimated your fish?

 

[mcbdz]

First things first. You need your equipment before getting any fish.

A hydrometer is better then nothing at all. Add up all the things you have lost so far and I bet it will start adding up to more the the refractometer. You can go on line and search and find one for 40 dollars. You will never beable to keep fish until you get the correct things first. Please slow down and get the right equipment first.

 

[stimpy4242]

A few things to add. First how long did the tank cycle before you added things originally? Second, what type of water are you using? Is the water just out of the faucet or is it RODI? I am not one of those people who thinks that using faucet water will kill everything, but coupled with other stuff it probably does not help especially with the chlorine. It was amazing to hear an LFS person actually giving you good advice, he is right the hydrometer is not as accurate and the refractometer is best. Either way you need to know what your SG is. As far as you know it could be nearly nothing or incredibly high...those aren't good things. I am glad to hear you only have strips, but if you want to get good information you need to be able to test other things like ammonia.
Finally i think you added too many fish to start. Also ph should be around 8.4. How do you know your tank was cycled? Start again, drain your water. USE rodi to fill it. Then test it with the proper tests and stop buying more fish, buy things you need to start such as the refractometer.

 

[theclemsonkid]

1. Add up all your GPH also ,and report back you total.
I assume you mean gallons per hour with this? I'm not sure if you mean with the filter, or the powerheads. So I will give you both. The filter we are using is a Marineland Emperor 400 that is rated at 400 GPH. We have two powerheads, one rated at 400 GPH and the other rated at 295 GPH. The 295 in a "direct" flow head, and the 400 is a "dispersed" flow.
2. What is your SG?
This I have no idea. Like I said before, when I tried to buy a hydrometer, he told me not to waste my time because it is really inaccurate. And I was willing to spend $50 on a refractometer, but no one has them in store, which means I would have to order one.
3. How are you acclimating these new arrivals?
With the tang yesterday, we initially got him home, dropped his bag in the QT for 20 minutes to get the temperatures the same. Then I moved him into a bucket with all his original bag water. I dripped an equal amount of tank water through a line over a 30 minute period. I then moved the fish over to the QT. About an hours worth of acclimation if I had to guess from bag to tank.
4. What type of water are you using for topoffs and w/c's?
We are just using standard tap water that is treated with Top Fin Water Conditioner.
5. Do you have a clean up crew in there? and what is it?
No, we don't. We tried adding a cleaner shrimp, which died in about six hours. Haven't tried anything since.
6. Explain your cycle?How did you do it, how long did it take?
We cycled the tank with two yellow tailed damsels, and one domino damsel. We also had two pieces of live rock. They all coexisted for about two weeks, until the one yellow tail was beating up the other, so we got rid of one. At the five week mark, we added a clown fish. Around the same time the domino got what looked like a fungal infection, so we got rid of him before he could infect the tank. After six weeks we checked the levels using the test strips, and everything came up well within the limits of a cycled tank.
Thanks again for all the help guys, I certainly appreciate it!
-Jonathan

 

[macdadydave]

Top off water??? How do you replace the water that evaporates?

 

[scopus tang]

All I have are the strips. This is what they tell me:
Nitrate: around 10
Nitrites: 0
Total Alkalinity: The color on my strip is a dark blue, and the colors on the "scale" on the bottle are green. However if dark green and dark blue are the same, then 300ppm
pH: Between 7.8 and 8.4
That's all the information that the test strip gives me. I have no idea what the specific gravity is, because when I went to buy a hydrometer, the guy told me it was a waste of time to get one, because they are completely inaccurate. He said give me $89 and I will get you a refractometer. I didn't have the extra money at the time, so I never got around to it.
Step #1; Throw your test strips in the garbage, and go buy reliable test kits for pH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (minimum)! Also consider test kits for phosphates, dKH, and calcium.
Step #2; buy a hydrometer or a refractometer immediately - a hydrometer may not be super accurate, but testing specific gravity is a must, and if you can't afford a frefractometer, than a hydrometer is a must!
Step #3; buy only 1 fish at a time until you actually start having some success (sounds like you were already heading down this track). Start with cheaper ones like chromosis until organisms begin to survive in your tank.
Step #4; Don't always assume that what is wrong is your tank - often wild captured fish only live for a few weeks, and animals that "appear" to be fine at the LFS, die from the shock of transport and transfer. They would have died anyway at the LFS had they been allowed to remain there. You may want to try some fish from another source, you may have better luck.
Step #5; review your filtration - I've never used emperor filters, so I can't say for sure, but one little filter on a 55 gallon tank doesn't sound adiquate to me.
Step #6; Go buy a good protein skimmer (I didn't see one on your list) and they are a must for a SW tank.

 

[theclemsonkid]

Top off water is just treated tap water. And until the last water change, we were just dumping the water right in, not dripping it from a bucket. It's the little things that no one tells you that frustrate me. I mean I suppose I should have been intelligent enough to figure that out on my own, but when you are new, you don't really "think" much.

 

[mcbdz]

GPH is not too bad. Maybe 1 more ph later

Your main problem I'll bet is you SG. This is way too important not to test for. As soon as you get your hydro/refractometer? you'll have much better luck.

The water you are using will eventually cause issues so check into either buying ro/di or getting your own system. I buy mine at walmart or lfs. Tap has disolved organics you can't test for but can harm your fish.
Invest in the right test kits, starting with amm., nitrites, nitrates, and ph. later you can add cal, mag., alk., phos., etc
This hobby does cost more then freshwater and requires losts more dedication. Read through the threads at the top of this forum for important info and ways to cut costs. Then decide if this is really still something you still want to do. If so we will be here for any questions and/or help. If not, but you still want fish you may want to look into freshwater for awhile. Way easier.

 

[theclemsonkid]

It's not that I don't have the time or the money. Because I've got both, and I am willing to do the work. I just have gotten a lot of bad advice I suppose.
I keep forgetting that the LFS is in it to sell things, not to help me have a successful, healthy tank.
That being said, I am going to slow down, try and do things the right way, and hopefully get this thing turned around.
Right now I am headed over to the LFS, gonna pick up a hydrometer, and give them the clown tang, see if they can possibly save him. When I get back, I will see what my SG is and we can go from there.
Stay tuned, and wish me luck (Cause I can obviously use it)
Thanks again
Jonathan

 

[theclemsonkid]

Also, what you would recommend as a good hardy starter fish (that isn't a damsel)?
What about two clowns and maybe a psuedochromis? Possibly a goby?
That's what I was thinking... let me know what you guys think...
-J

 

[mcbdz]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2468008
It's not that I don't have the time or the money. Because I've got both, and I am willing to do the work. I just have gotten a lot of bad advice I suppose.
I keep forgetting that the LFS is in it to sell things, not to help me have a successful, healthy tank.
That being said, I am going to slow down, try and do things the right way, and hopefully get this thing turned around.
Right now I am headed over to the LFS, gonna pick up a hydrometer, and give them the clown tang, see if they can possibly save him. When I get back, I will see what my SG is and we can go from there.
Stay tuned, and wish me luck (Cause I can obviously use it)
Thanks again
Jonathan

We're standing buy.

Don't forget to read the above threads also. Lots of important info that will help you understand why we are saying what we are.

 

[mcbdz]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2468021
Also, what you would recommend as a good hardy starter fish (that isn't a damsel)?
What about two clowns and maybe a psuedochromis? Possibly a goby?
That's what I was thinking... let me know what you guys think...
-J
After everything is in order and you feel ready I would start with a clean up crew. These guys are essintial to your maintance of your tank. Give them a week or so of stable readings and then a clown or 2 at most. Then give them 3-4 weeks of stablity before another addition.

 

[sigmachris]

Tips on a hydrometer...
Before each use fill it up with warm / hot tap water and shake in vigoursly.
After you fill up the hydrometer with salt water, thwack with your finger a couple of times. Sometimes air bubbles will get stuck on the swing arm causing it to rise higher and giving you an inaccurate reading. By thwaking it you will release the air bubbles. What I mean by thwaking, is when you were a kid and you took your thumb and middle finger to thwack the ear loob of your sibling or friend.