Defeating Ick without quarantine or medications

jeff903

Member
I was just wondering if it was possible for a fish (flame angel) to be able to overcome ick with it's own immune system. I noticed a few spots on it about a week to a week and a half ago and then it developed into ick. I have anemones and live rock so I can't treat the fish in my tank and didn't put it into a hospital tank yet. I gave it about 3 doses of garlick in its food in the past week and it all the spots went away but it is still acting "funny". It swims up to the food but doesn't eat during feeding time and hides a lot now also. It's colors also aren't as brilliant. I bought a coral banded shrimp to help it not realizing I should've bought a cleaner shrimp to help pick off the parasites, but it still won't leave the shrimp alone. Every minute it is by its side. Will my fish recover or is this just a dormant period. And I was wondering, if garlick makes the fish beat the ick, will it still be there in the tank or eventually go away? thanks
[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff903 ]
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Ick has 3 cycles during its lifetime, one of which the hobbyist can actually see ick on their fish as it appears as salt-like dots appearing on body and fins. The other 2 cycles of ick can not be seen by the hobbyist, and, in fact, it is during one of these stages that the ick becomes infectious to fish.
So, if the ick is not visible, it is because it has dropped off the fish [or most of it has] and entered into one of the other cycles. The cycle will continue until all fish in your tank succumb to it.
So, yes, a fish who has ick might be able to battle off 1-2 attacks of ick, but, eventually the fish immune defenses will weaken to the point that the fish will succumb and die. Garlic helps to some extent ward off parasites, but its not likely to cure an all-out infestation. Your tank will keep the ick in it as long as you have fish in the tank. You should treat your fish using hyposalinity.
[ November 24, 2001: Message edited by: Beth ]
 

peasly1

Member
I am sure beth knows better than I but here is how I have handled the situation before( a few times) raise the temp slowly to 82 and leave it for at least 4-5 days ick cannot live in that state ( most fish will be ok w/ that temp)
 

jeff903

Member
For Beth:
So your saying that it'll keep fighting the outbreak (1-2 times) but will stay there and never fully go away without medications. I thought ick lived dormant in all fish and then stress makes it release and become infectious. I just want to make sure that when you say attacks, you mean that a full attack and then recovery and then the ick is gone until another attack (possibly months or years or whatever). As you can see I am very nervous about this. Or did you just mean and outbreak from the same attack? Do you see what I mean? And thanks for the temp info peasly1. I had actually lowered my temp a few days ago because I thought it was a little high! Jeff
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I don't believe the temp solution is viable for this reason. Yes, you can raise the temp which will accelerate the life cycle of ick, but to KILL it, the temp would have to be raised to such a level that you would also kill the fish and whatever else is in the tank.
Yes, ick is a parasitic partner with fish; however, in their natural environment, this does not pose a big problem because the fish can escape infestation by virture of large volumes of water and fish. Most parasites don't want to kill their hosts, because if they did then they would also end up killing themselves off too.
However, in the capative aquaria both ick and fish have a problem. There are very limited fish in the aquarium, and there is no escape for fish. The ick is captured just as the fish are and they proliferated, and proliferate, and proliferate, in the closed confines of the tank. Ick must feed and have a very limited amt of fish to feed on. Therein is the problem for fish in the aquairum.
Look at ick as being to fish what flees are to mammals. Animals in the wild have flees but usually have no ill effects from them. However, take that animal & put them in a cage or make it a house pet and then you have a problem. You must get rid of the flees or the animal will suffer, and could even die from flee investation.
Heres how ick works:
Saltwater ich are found in nature and normal, healthy fish commonly carry a few of these parasites when collected. Left in the ocean, fish will experience no real ill effects from ick unless some other stressor is present---for instance an injury to the fish. Once captured, however, stressors to fish are extreme [please see TerryB’s series on stress in the Fish Forum] and the fish become vulnerable to parasitic infestation. Thus, a parasite that causes little trouble in the wild, becomes a menace in the captive environment.
Most find that there is no effective treatment for ick as long as the parasites remain embedded in the fish; some, however, purport that FW dips are an effective initial treatment of ick [while the parasites are embedded in the host fish] to be followed by other, longer term conventional treatments, such as hyposalinity or copper treatment. The standard treatment for ick is hyposalinity or use of copper. My preference is hyposalinity.
Ick has a life cycle of approx. 23 days during which time the parasite undergoes 3 stages. In the tomite [free-swimming] stage, the parasite is infectious to fish. During this stage, the tomite’s goal is to find a host fish, or die trying. In the aquarium, tomites have no problem finding a host. After they attach to the gills or body of a fish, they develop into the second stage, the parasitic trophont. During this stage they burrow into the fish, feeding on it’s tissues, which can cause considerable damage and even result in a secondary bacterial infection on the infected fish. Once well fed the trophonts stop feeding and develop cystic coverings. This becomes the inactive tomont stage and during this final stage the cysts may stay trapped in the mucus of the fish, or fall off and sit on the bottom of the aquarium. Within 6 to 10 days hundreds of new tomites emerge looking for fish hosts and the cycle begins all over again, and again and again until something is done about it. Once ick is an active presence in the aquaria, having infested fish, it must be irradiated or it will always pose a threat to fish, and to any new fish introduced. The only time this parasite is vulnerable is during their free swimming stage [unless you are a hobbyist who strongly believes in FW dips & that ick are also effected by dips]. The standard treatment for Ick is copper sulfate and hyposalinity. Only in the free-swimming stage are these 2 treatments effective.
The parasite must feed, and your fish is the food source. May a fish survive ick? Yes it might, for awhile. However, every 3 weeks ick will attack fish so it can feed.
You do not need to medicate with ick. Use hyposalinity. However, since you have inverts and LR, you will have to do this in a separate tank. If you absolutely can't do this, I would suggest getting a cleaner shrimp and using garlic soaked food. That would be better than doing nothing, but it will not eliminate ick from your tank.
 

blue oasis

Member
We really enjoyed reading what Beth had to say, and have used Beth ideas in the past and went out a bought a QT and treated the fish using the copper method.
We do have a question, we waited 4 weeks and then added are fish back into the main tank only to find out 2 weeks later that the fish came down with ick again. Is this normal? We do have a UV sterlizer and the main purpose for us buying it was to try to reduce the chance of the fish getting ick.
N & G
 

tangwhispr

Member
I'm a newbie here but I will throw in my .02 cents, I have a tang fetish to say the least, in my 125 I have 1 regal, 2 naso, 1 powder brown, 1 powder blue, 1 kole, 1 clown, 1 white cheek...not to mention numerous angles, chromis,etc...I may change 20 gallons every 2 months, and top off with sometimes when my sump is low. I have had 1 outbreak in 3 years...I keep my salinity at 1.01, and got a 18watt UV sterilzer, dose with garlic once a month. Not saying its the proper thing to do but it works for me.
 

tangwhispr

Member
Originally Posted by Jupoc911
freshwater is basically 1.01 how are your fish alive?

I have heard of people going 1.008 -1.009 to get rid of ich, just google "saltwater ick salinity" my inverts all do well too. I lowered salinity rather quickly I added 15 gal of plain r/o water every day till the salinity was 1.01.
 
A

anthonynyc

Guest
Originally Posted by Jupoc911
freshwater is basically 1.01 how are your fish alive?
You probably mean close to 1.001 and not 1.01
1.01 is close to hypsalinity. I think it threw you off when he did not add the other 0 which would make it 1.010
Anthony
 

kat 4

Member
I have had 1 outbreak in 3 years...I keep my salinity at 1.01, and got a 18watt UV sterilzer, dose with garlic once a month. Not saying its the proper thing to do but it works for me.
How do you "dose" with garlic? I just fought off ICH with garlic soaked food and 2-4 capfuls in a 29 gallon tank - twice a day. I've been doing this for a week. When can I stop the garlic and what will happen when I do. Can the ich come back?
 

whitey

Member
Originally Posted by TangWhispr
I'm a newbie here but I will throw in my .02 cents, I have a tang fetish to say the least, in my 125 I have 1 regal, 2 naso, 1 powder brown, 1 powder blue, 1 kole, 1 clown, 1 white cheek...not to mention numerous angles, chromis,etc...I may change 20 gallons every 2 months, and top off with sometimes when my sump is low. I have had 1 outbreak in 3 years...I keep my salinity at 1.01, and got a 18watt UV sterilzer, dose with garlic once a month. Not saying its the proper thing to do but it works for me.

I'm glad it works good for you. It's just unfortunate that you're torturing those fish, so it's probably not working for them. Feel proud.
 

epetrosian

New Member
has anyone thought abought Diatom filters with charge? this filter works great in 2 and 3 stage of the ick life cycle it catches it and you dump it. I have a 180 and a120 and fought with ick as long as I remember till I got this micro filter. I hope this helps in some way
 
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