Devastating losses/lessons learned...

[kendall]

I'm absolutely devastated right now. That's about the only way to describe the feeling I have. I catch trout and striped bass all the time, release 90% that I catch and eat the rest...But there is no feeling worse than killing these tropical fish...To think of the journey they go on, only to have their lives end in your hands...
Anyways, I dropped a flame angel into a 1 month old system. I now believe there were parasites the whole time from initial introduction of damsels. I had lost 1 damsel, but that was early on. The other 2 damsels were troopers and fighting the parasites pretty good with the cleaner shrimp..As soon as the Flame hit the water, about 1 hour in, he had ick...He died yesterday so my plan was to get the damsels in QT and do hypo...
Well my $49 QT new setup from Walmart failed me overnight....I wake up and the filter wasn't running the water felt like ice and the damsels are laying on the bottom gasping for air dying...
I feel horrible...
These are my lessons learned so far:
#1-Losing tropical fish is horrible..Dip every fish you get and QT him for a while if you can...I'm convinced every one of these fish is covered with lethal parasites...Just think of where they come from and all the different water they are in...It's an absolute must, just too risky...The pros do it, why wouldn't I?
#2-Run a QT tank at the same water parameters as your display tank ALWAYS. This is especially true if you have invertebrates in your display tank. If you have a mixed tank you will never be able to treat fish properly when they sick...Also, getting a QT tank up and running for an emergency is just too tramatic an experiencce for yourself and your fish. Have it ready.
#3-When removing fish, be prepared to take apart your system early. Healthy fish are practically impossible to catch...Pull rock out early to avoid disaster later...
#4-Disconnect everything when pulling water out of tank. Nothing like having the heater freak out and burn stuff because you were lazy to shut it off...
#5-Don't worry about diatoms or algae. This stuff is good for tank. I can't get enough of it now for the cleanup crew...
#6-Don't depend on Walmart setup. I don't know what happened but that cheesy filter stopped running...I'm going to buy the eheim $15 hangon...
And finally....BUY THE 75 gallon. Not the 46, but the 75.....If that friggin lady that sold me it was at all fired about her life or fish in general she would have got me to get the bigger one...75 gallons is a must!!!

 

[jedi]

Just to add 1 more thing to your lesson learned list......
Patience.. You must have Patience.
I am very sorry to hear your losses and frustration. start over, slow down and let the tank stablize for a couple months before adding angels, etc...
Good advice you have given .
Jedi

 

[nizmike]

Kendall,
Sorry all your fish died. I think the reason why you had the ich breakout was that your tank was never properly cycled.
Mike

 

[bacffin]

Sorry for your loss kendall. I fear the same exact thing. Did you buy your fish local?
Bruce

 

[ohiorn67]

Another lesson to be learned....really think about who you buy your stuff from...so far I have been lucky with a pair of maroon clowns and couple of other small fish from one place, but I have been hesitating about buying my tang.....not sure why....but my lfs closest to me just got 3 tiny blue tangs....I really wanted one..took every bit of effort to not buy one, but I asked them if they would be ick treating them at all since one looked maybe it was getting something...nope, they would not treat....so I walked out figuring I will wait a week or so and see how they are doing....well by golly.....all dead....my other lfs a bit further but I guess worth the trip says...they will order me one when I am ready.....will let me keep it there for a week or so and then once we make sure it is ok, they will fresh dip it for me before I take it home.....let me tell you...they also give a guarentee on their fish for a small extra fee I am definitely willing to pay for a tang....but the other store also did not do this.....just look around and check your places...they are all very different.

 

[kendall]

I bought my fish local...I know the Flame was an impatient act, but my inverterbrates are doing fine. My levels are fine...I don't want to jinx it, but the cleaner shrimp guys look pretty good...Aren't cleaners suppose to be somewhat delicate?
Either way, this damn parasite came in with this Domino I lost right away...I'm letting the tank run a month before I start stocking verts again...
So additional lessons:
#7-Patience...Get your tank established. LFS's don't appear to have problems when they drop fish in their crowded tanks...Why? Well because their tanks are well established and they do preventive DIPS....
I have another...
#8-Don't cycle your tank with Damsels. Whoever thought of this? It makes no sense. If you want bacteria throw in some dead shrimp if you don't have bills for Live Rock...I'll tell you what. Losing these $10 fiji damsels is killing me 1000times more than the $50 Flame Angel...An emotional bond is much stronger than $$$'s...
In a way the devastating feeling is GOOD..Each fish has his or her own uniqe personality. If I can get this attached to these fish in a month, they will make very good pets. Better than a cat or dog, ect....

 

[bacffin]

Kendall. Do you mind me asking what city or town you bought them at?
Thanks,
Bruce

 

[farmboy]

I've heard that angels are very picky about water quality. My buddy kept one for a while(months) and his ph got out of wack a little. The angel died while everything else was ok. He had a mandarin and several clowns and a royal grama, snails, crabs and starfish. The angel was the only one affected.
Sorry about your losses, Kendall.
You seem to have a good attitude toward it.
Be patient. Good luck.

 

[nizmike]

"If you want bacteria throw in some dead shrimp if you don't have bills for Live Rock"
What do you mean by this? Have you read up on the nitrogen cycle and cycling your tank? I don't mean to come off as harsh, but from what you said in your post yesterday it made it sound like you added in the damsels with little if any live rock in the tank. From there you added a piece here and a piece there every week or so.
You have to understand that the live rock is their for the "beneficial" bacteria to grow on. The breakdown of a shrimp kicks-off the cycle and starts to grow this bacteria on your LR. You will not be able to effectively cycle you tank with only 10 lbs of LR.
Hope this helps,
Mike

 

[fromoe]

i feel your pain. i lost an eilbi angel this morning. this one croaked during its quarantine period. i lost a flame angel two months ago as well. my tank parameters 80*, ph 8.4 ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 0. lucky for the fishies i won't try another angel. i've never had any problems with other types of fish. the flame angel was purchased off this site and died the 8th day. the eilbi was a local purchase and died on day 5.

 

[kendall]

Nizmike-
What my point was, is that the dead shrimp will give you the initial Amonia spike thus kicking off the cycle. Much better and faster than relying on feces from a couple damsels to get things moving...The problem is most LFS's want to make their customers happy with something swimming early on...How many people want to buy a tank knowing they have to wait a month or more before they can add fish?.....
Live rock isn't essential for bacteria to grow on and effectively cycle your tank...Will the live rock make that whole process more efficient and add a ton more filtration to your system? Absolutely, but it's not a necessity. What about bacteria in the filter? It grows there, no?
Person A- could, setup a tank and throw dead shrimp in. Bacteria would grow in the filter and the tank would cycle.
Person B- could add live rock, 1 lb per Gallon, and cycle his tank with just that in there...
Person C-Could add .25 or .50 lbs per Gallon, throw a dead shrimp in, and cycle his tank also...
Many ways to do it, but Live rock isn't essential...We weren't planning on live rock reef initially, that's why we got the damsels to kick of the cycle...The shrimp would have been a better way to accomplish that...I have learned the hard way....

 

[kendall]

Fromoe,
The QT stressed my fish out big time...What is your QT setup? My damsels were fairly healthy, that's why I feel so bad. I QT'd them because I knew they were battling parasites and I wanted to hypo them...I only got the water down to 1.018 and they died...
My QT was setup on an emergency basis...Besides the filter stopping overnight...The water felt like ice(didn't check temps), I also had a little ammonia in the tank along with trace amounts of Nitrites and Nitrates...
I need to make the QT more of a happy place and get the parameters as close as possible to the main tank...I put 2 pieces of bleached coral in it...I wouldn't mind having the tank be decent looking anyways...
Does the Melefix stuff work?

 

[nizmike]

Originally Posted by kendall
Nizmike-
What my point was, is that the dead shrimp will give you the initial Amonia spike thus kicking off the cycle. Much better and faster than relying on feces from a couple damsels to get things moving...The problem is most LFS's want to make their customers happy with something swimming early on...How many people want to buy a tank knowing they have to wait a month or more before they can add fish?.....
Live rock isn't essential for bacteria to grow on and effectively cycle your tank...Will the live rock make that whole process more efficient and add a ton more filtration to your system? Absolutely, but it's not a necessity. What about bacteria in the filter? It grows there, no?
Person A- could, setup a tank and throw dead shrimp in. Bacteria would grow in the filter and the tank would cycle.
Person B- could add live rock, 1 lb per Gallon, and cycle his tank with just that in there...
Person C-Could add .25 or .50 lbs per Gallon, throw a dead shrimp in, and cycle his tank also...
Many ways to do it, but Live rock isn't essential...We weren't planning on live rock reef initially, that's why we got the damsels to kick of the cycle...The shrimp would have been a better way to accomplish that...I have learned the hard way....
I never learned what kind of filter you are running. Are you running a skimmer? True, bacteria can grow in the filter...
However, the A,B and C senerio's you listed above are not all created equally.
Without ample bioloical filtration, the tank may be able to support a few damsels, but would not be very stable once you add additional fish. I think this is what happend when you added the Flame. Having adquate amounts of LR will help craete a buffer for biological filtration, keeping things more stable.
Mike

 

[saltn00b]

iv had some problems with angels as well, but it was a few months ago in my less educated days, when i first started and got burned by the LFS big time. my tank is now 3+ months mature, and i have a 1.5 month old 10 gallon qt tank running at all times. i keep a damsel in there, but i can probably take him out. I recently purchased a coral beauty angel and a royal gramma, and put them in the qt tank, which we treat with copper once a month. we were planning on keeping them in there for a week or so, but the qt tank was too new, and didnt have a mature enough bio filter, hence leading to a moderately big spike in nitrates. that alone was enough to cause the CB to not eat. after the third day, i just put them both in the display, and the angel was eating within hours. now i have a yellow tang and long nose hawkfish in the QT. I plan on keeping them in the QT for 10 days. to boost the bacteria in the system and keep the nitrates down, there is an additive (of bacteria) that you can buy at your LFS, to help seed your system. sorry i forgot the name of it though. just my 2 cents

 

[kendall]

NizMike,
Mechanical:
46 Gallon Bow.
Eheim PRO II canister. (75 gallon rated)
Remora Aqua C Hangon skimmer with maxijet 1200. (75 gallon rated)
Maxijet900 Powerhead...(setup on other side from skimmer and filter)
2x96 Coralife with lunar lighting...(all on timers)
Substrate:
3 inch sand bed.
Rock:
I have 30 lbs of Fiji Rock...(probably 20 lbs is really alive, the rest is boring)
I have 11lbs of Tonga... (best rock I've seen at any LFS, Coral coming up all over it)
I should be able to house some nice fish and inverts with that setup, don't you think?

 

[nizmike]

Sounds very nice, you are set-up for success equipment wise. I am running the same skimmer myself.
The hardest part to me about this hobby is going slow with it. However, it definately pays to do so.
Best of luck with you next additions!

Mike

 

[fromoe]

Originally Posted by kendall
Fromoe,
The QT stressed my fish out big time...What is your QT setup? My damsels were fairly healthy, that's why I feel so bad. I QT'd them because I knew they were battling parasites and I wanted to hypo them...I only got the water down to 1.018 and they died...
Does the Melefix stuff work?
My QT is a 10 gallon that has been set up for a year with a half inch of sand from my display tank. normal flourescent lighting, a powerhead, and a small power filter.
once the ich showed up, i began hypo. i got the salinity down to 14 ppt over 48 hours, but it was too late. fishie died a day later.
i'm not familiar with melefix.

 

[farmboy]

Some more ideas for a QT tank:
Use about half of your water for the QT tank from the main tank and make up the rest + replace main tank water with new SW. This helps by putting established bacteria in the QT and doubles as a water change for main tank.
I've used the bio-balls from my main in my quarantine to aid the bacteria. (the balls can be sterilized and replaced into main tank as long as no COPPER treatment has been used on the QT tank while they are in there. This can be a continual-renewable source of benificial bacteria.) CAUTION: Even doing this can result in a QT spike, so monitor closely. The good thing is every few days you can take a gallon or 2 out of display and replenish the QT.
THis seems to be working for me. I purchased 2 clowns after my cylce and one had ICK and then it developed fin rot. (the other clown is fine) So, "Icky" is in a 10 gallon QT tank and is progressing nicely. Ick no where to be seen and tail is regrowing.
HTH

 

[saltn00b]

but my question is , how the hell do you catch these guys once in the display? i have a 75 gallon with close to 100 lbs of LR

 

[farmboy]

I know exactly what you mean!!! I have almost an identical setup.
There is nothing like snagging a rock with your net while chasing down a fish!
The most success I've had is at feeding time. . . .