D
dboy999
Guest
another..ill take some new ones soon do a search for my name if intrested many threads with pics from day 1
scsinet
Active Member
Since we're talking about calculations...
You have a 1000 gallons of water. That's a good round figure to use.
Since one gallon of seawater weighs somewhere between 8.34 and 8.54 lbs per gallon, you have an estimated 8,340 lbs of water in your system.
To cool that much water just one degree and keep it at that temperature, you need 8,340 BTU/h of cooling capacity. No residential fridge or freezer is that powerful. They are rated in hundreds of BTUs, not thousands.
Keep in mind, you aren't cooling air, you're cooling water. Water takes a tremendous amount of energy to cool, cubic foot for cubic foot, compared to air.
You didn't mention to me how much you need the water cooled, but if you are looking at a even a two degree cooldown, you need a massive amount of cooling... 16,680BTU/h, etc.
I am a firm believer that almost everything can be built by someone with the guts to try it, but chillers are one of those things that make me say "almost."
If I was really intent on DIYing this, then I'd be using a really big window AC unit... maybe 12,000-18,000 BTU or so.
You have a 1000 gallons of water. That's a good round figure to use.
Since one gallon of seawater weighs somewhere between 8.34 and 8.54 lbs per gallon, you have an estimated 8,340 lbs of water in your system.
To cool that much water just one degree and keep it at that temperature, you need 8,340 BTU/h of cooling capacity. No residential fridge or freezer is that powerful. They are rated in hundreds of BTUs, not thousands.
Keep in mind, you aren't cooling air, you're cooling water. Water takes a tremendous amount of energy to cool, cubic foot for cubic foot, compared to air.
You didn't mention to me how much you need the water cooled, but if you are looking at a even a two degree cooldown, you need a massive amount of cooling... 16,680BTU/h, etc.
I am a firm believer that almost everything can be built by someone with the guts to try it, but chillers are one of those things that make me say "almost."
If I was really intent on DIYing this, then I'd be using a really big window AC unit... maybe 12,000-18,000 BTU or so.
deeze
Member
I tried this on a smaller scale for my 200 gallon and I did get great results... about a 6 degree cooling but I was using 1/4" freezer line and it just didn't output enough volume to make a difference. I ended up buying a chiller but the idea would have been great for a 100 gallon. I know it would work with a bigger freezer... 1000 gallons is a lot though. The trick is to pump it into your ghetto chiller from the sump and return it to the main tank up top. That way if you lose power the siphon effect will pretty much clear the line. Install the initial line up high and I'd just focus on using the freezer part... the fridge is pretty useless. Here's my thread on the whole incident:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/217667/ghetto-chiller-for-200-gallon-reef
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/217667/ghetto-chiller-for-200-gallon-reef
macjmc
Member
I dont know why people are being so negative saying it wont work. The concept is the coils will always be cold so water traveling through them will cool. It is pretty simple. It doesnt matter how much power your fridge or freezer has. I think it would work great. Just keep it simple!
D
dboy999
Guest
Here Here Mac....
I figure its a cheap try .wether it works or not...going to go through the freezer an fridge..justgotta find this titanium tubing..or may cheap out with some rubber..gotta find some prices..
I figure its a cheap try .wether it works or not...going to go through the freezer an fridge..justgotta find this titanium tubing..or may cheap out with some rubber..gotta find some prices..
threed240
Member
Here's an Idea. What about those aironditioners that use water and air for cooling. The water flows over a cardboard like material that has 1000's of holes in it. The holes are actually like tubes. Then air is sucked through it cooling the air on the other side. Would this not also cool the water that is falling over the cooling panel? If so it could fall into a resevoir and be pumped back into the tank. ???
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by MACJMC
I dont know why people are being so negative saying it wont work. The concept is the coils will always be cold so water traveling through them will cool. It is pretty simple. It doesnt matter how much power your fridge or freezer has. I think it would work great. Just keep it simple!
With all due respect, this is not correct. Phase change refrigeration systems cool by moving heat from one location (inside the fridge in this case) to another (outside the fridge). By removing heat from the inside, you make it colder. The quantity of heat you can move is measured in BTUs, and it simply takes more BTUs to chill 1000 gallons of water by any measure than a fridge has. Your statement is saying that the cooling capacity of a fridge is irrelevant. This is simply not true. The coils will be cold, only if heat is not being continuously introduced by aquarium water being pumped through.
The aquarium's water will heat the fridge ******** faster than the fridge can cool it. Another member a couple posts ago just said the same thing... he achieved a 6 degree drop, but the rate that he pumped water through at was insufficient to have a demonstrable effect on the water. The idea is that you are not just cooling a bunch of water in an insulated box. You are cooling water that is at the same time being heated by the air around the tank, the lights, pumps, etc. The cooling power of the fridge must EXCEED the amount of heat being put in for cooling to take place.
Originally Posted by dboy999
Here Here Mac....
I figure its a cheap try .wether it works or not...going to go through the freezer an fridge..justgotta find this titanium tubing..or may cheap out with some rubber..gotta find some prices..
Originally Posted by dboy999
nobody has done this??or opinions on it?
You asked for opinions. I gave one, and even went so far as to back it with mathematical evidence, and even offered alternatives. Why ask for opinions if you are just going to get upset at the people who give opinions you don't like? If I am going to get flamed for voicing an unpopular opinion, I'll just butt out.
As much as I like to ram an argument into the ground, I am obviously pissing everyone off here by disagreeing. I'm not going to keep droning on about this. DBoy, you obviously want to try this and that's just fine. I love DIYing and encourage any attempt. My only beef is that I thought you wanted to know what everyone thought, but you sound as though I'm being the butt for disagreeing. I'll be glad to butt out if it pleases the court.
I dont know why people are being so negative saying it wont work. The concept is the coils will always be cold so water traveling through them will cool. It is pretty simple. It doesnt matter how much power your fridge or freezer has. I think it would work great. Just keep it simple!
With all due respect, this is not correct. Phase change refrigeration systems cool by moving heat from one location (inside the fridge in this case) to another (outside the fridge). By removing heat from the inside, you make it colder. The quantity of heat you can move is measured in BTUs, and it simply takes more BTUs to chill 1000 gallons of water by any measure than a fridge has. Your statement is saying that the cooling capacity of a fridge is irrelevant. This is simply not true. The coils will be cold, only if heat is not being continuously introduced by aquarium water being pumped through.
The aquarium's water will heat the fridge ******** faster than the fridge can cool it. Another member a couple posts ago just said the same thing... he achieved a 6 degree drop, but the rate that he pumped water through at was insufficient to have a demonstrable effect on the water. The idea is that you are not just cooling a bunch of water in an insulated box. You are cooling water that is at the same time being heated by the air around the tank, the lights, pumps, etc. The cooling power of the fridge must EXCEED the amount of heat being put in for cooling to take place.
Originally Posted by dboy999
Here Here Mac....
I figure its a cheap try .wether it works or not...going to go through the freezer an fridge..justgotta find this titanium tubing..or may cheap out with some rubber..gotta find some prices..
Originally Posted by dboy999
nobody has done this??or opinions on it?
You asked for opinions. I gave one, and even went so far as to back it with mathematical evidence, and even offered alternatives. Why ask for opinions if you are just going to get upset at the people who give opinions you don't like? If I am going to get flamed for voicing an unpopular opinion, I'll just butt out.
As much as I like to ram an argument into the ground, I am obviously pissing everyone off here by disagreeing. I'm not going to keep droning on about this. DBoy, you obviously want to try this and that's just fine. I love DIYing and encourage any attempt. My only beef is that I thought you wanted to know what everyone thought, but you sound as though I'm being the butt for disagreeing. I'll be glad to butt out if it pleases the court.
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by Threed240
Here's an Idea. What about those aironditioners that use water and air for cooling. The water flows over a cardboard like material that has 1000's of holes in it. The holes are actually like tubes. Then air is sucked through it cooling the air on the other side. Would this not also cool the water that is falling over the cooling panel? If so it could fall into a resevoir and be pumped back into the tank. ???
You are referring to not an air conditioner, but an evaporative cooler, also called a "swamp cooler." In theory, this could work. Many aquarists will tell you that evaporation goes a long way towards temperature control. Where you would run into problems is that they evaporate SO much water that you may have trouble maintaining water levels in the tank and you may have problems with impurities getting into the water from the air (dust, etc).
Here's an Idea. What about those aironditioners that use water and air for cooling. The water flows over a cardboard like material that has 1000's of holes in it. The holes are actually like tubes. Then air is sucked through it cooling the air on the other side. Would this not also cool the water that is falling over the cooling panel? If so it could fall into a resevoir and be pumped back into the tank. ???
You are referring to not an air conditioner, but an evaporative cooler, also called a "swamp cooler." In theory, this could work. Many aquarists will tell you that evaporation goes a long way towards temperature control. Where you would run into problems is that they evaporate SO much water that you may have trouble maintaining water levels in the tank and you may have problems with impurities getting into the water from the air (dust, etc).
acrylic51
Active Member
The theory or method of using a refrigerator to cool a system isn't very affective and has been tried many times.....The contact time is very low and there is a thread another site that goes into real details about materials that are good conductors of heat and such and when you sit down and weigh it all out the best option is just to bite the bullet and buy a chiller.......That's part of the game!!!!!
threed240
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
You are referring to not an air conditioner, but an evaporative cooler, also called a "swamp cooler." In theory, this could work. Many aquarists will tell you that evaporation goes a long way towards temperature control. Where you would run into problems is that they evaporate SO much water that you may have trouble maintaining water levels in the tank and you may have problems with impurities getting into the water from the air (dust, etc).
Yeah. That makes sense. I was just brainstorming. :notsure:
You are referring to not an air conditioner, but an evaporative cooler, also called a "swamp cooler." In theory, this could work. Many aquarists will tell you that evaporation goes a long way towards temperature control. Where you would run into problems is that they evaporate SO much water that you may have trouble maintaining water levels in the tank and you may have problems with impurities getting into the water from the air (dust, etc).
Yeah. That makes sense. I was just brainstorming. :notsure:
trainfever
Active Member
It could work but possibly too well. I used to work in a gun/tackle shop. We sold live bait in there such as worms and live minnows. Minnows are a cold water fish and we needed a way to keep the water cool to keep the minnows alive. They sell minnow tanks that keep the water cool but they are very expensive and we were more towards guns and hunting and didnt wat to put the money out for the tank. Anyway we had an old refrigerator that we kept worms in. We drilled holes in the side of the fridge and ran a hose through to the freezer and back out to a 55 gallon tank. I dont remember but I think it was 5/8 hose about 25' of it. The hose was coiled in the freezer. There was a pump in the tank that pumped the water through the freezer and back into the tank. It did indded keep the water cold. The problem here might be that it will keep the water too cold for you. Another problem was that the water would freeze in the hose every few days and we would have to use a hair dryer to melt it. The things you will need to figure out it how fast to pump the water through the hose to keep it from freezing and how much hose to keep in the freezer which would be your exposure time to cool the water. You dont want to be cooling the water and then have your heater working to heat it again. You'd end up paying an enormous electric bill. maybe you could buy a length of hose but only put a single coil in the freezer to test the exposure time and then every other day or so add another coil until you find the right amount of hose you need exposed to the cold. Then you just cut the hose to length or just leave it outside the fridge in case you need to make adjustments later. That would be your key, figuring out how much hose(water) needs to be exposed to the cold in order to keep it at the correct temperature. I hope this helps.
D
dboy999
Guest
Well the test has bin done....I put aprox. 25' of rubber 5/8 tubing coiled through out the freezer and about 3 feet through the fridge area..I have it hooked up to a mag 5 and a ball valve ive tryed everything from full blast down to a nice trickle(which seemed to work best as far as temp of water coming out of fridge.However i belive it was SCS that said that the water would actually heat up the freezer an I must say good call cause all my frozen food melted etc..however iam still just letting it run for another week or so the water coming out of the fridge is about 3-4 degrees cooler just not very much as far as quanity ..think i may have to shell out the 2-3K for a nice chiller ..thanks all
1bigboy69
Member
I know a guy that did the same setup on his 120 and it works great.
Just run all the coil through the fridge.
He only used a college size fridge. He took 1/2 id and made a coil of about 50 ft? He went to the HD and got a small roll of flashing that is used for rooging and cut them in squares that filt in the fridge to seperate the coils. He then drilled holed through all the flashing so there would be better circulation, up and down through the coils. The thing works great and he has no fluctuation in temp. He runs the water from his sump with a maxi-jet 400 and returns it right back to the sump.
Hope this helped a lil'
Just run all the coil through the fridge.
He only used a college size fridge. He took 1/2 id and made a coil of about 50 ft? He went to the HD and got a small roll of flashing that is used for rooging and cut them in squares that filt in the fridge to seperate the coils. He then drilled holed through all the flashing so there would be better circulation, up and down through the coils. The thing works great and he has no fluctuation in temp. He runs the water from his sump with a maxi-jet 400 and returns it right back to the sump.
Hope this helped a lil'
xdave
Active Member
I just love threads where you guys will think I'm nuts. First the simple common not so whacky idea.
Have you considered going geothermal? With a system that large you might as well go for something that has no upkeep and no power costs. Dig a ditch in the yard below the frost line and run a couple hudred feet of out and back.
OK, break out the trigonometry books. Wrap the coils in the fridge in a hyperbolic function configuration , like a nuclear plant cooling tower. It would probably only take 10 years of trial and error to get the curve formula right. See, I told you you'd think I was nuts. Did you ever see one of those things at McDonalds for collecting money for charities that looks like 2 funnels together, you put a coin in and it goes round and round? I took one of those and put a hose at the top and pointed the flow so that the water would go the same path as the coin. It took 8 degrees off of my 60 gal. I dont know if the shape had anything to do with it but they make the nuclear ones that shape for a reason.
Have you considered going geothermal? With a system that large you might as well go for something that has no upkeep and no power costs. Dig a ditch in the yard below the frost line and run a couple hudred feet of out and back.
OK, break out the trigonometry books. Wrap the coils in the fridge in a hyperbolic function configuration , like a nuclear plant cooling tower. It would probably only take 10 years of trial and error to get the curve formula right. See, I told you you'd think I was nuts. Did you ever see one of those things at McDonalds for collecting money for charities that looks like 2 funnels together, you put a coin in and it goes round and round? I took one of those and put a hose at the top and pointed the flow so that the water would go the same path as the coin. It took 8 degrees off of my 60 gal. I dont know if the shape had anything to do with it but they make the nuclear ones that shape for a reason.
acrylic51
Active Member
Your still talking about pulling down temp on a small system.....Again not really effective on a large body of water.....Geothermal use on a system isn't a new concept you've come up with.....Go over to reefcentral and that's been done numerous times by different folks.....
scsinet
Active Member
Originally Posted by acrylic51
Your still talking about pulling down temp on a small system.....Again not really effective on a large body of water.....Geothermal use on a system isn't a new concept you've come up with.....Go over to reefcentral and that's been done numerous times by different folks.....
Agreed.
First of all, I've actually suggested a Geothermal system on several other threads here. There are two big problems. First, the expense of installation is so enormous compared to just buying a chiller that there is no point. Second, the risk of a tube rupturing and contaminating your tank is great, meaning you have to use heat exchangers which cut efficiency. Sure, 1% of us may have a huge yard that our wives don't mind us tearing up and a backhoe or ditch witch stashed in a hall closet, but the other 99% of us don't have either. :thinking:
The biggest misconception about the whole fridge/freezer/whatever idea to chill a tank is that the failure point is in the efficiency of the exchange within the fridge (how you build your coil, etc). People obsess over how to run their coil, how fast to pump the water, what material to make it out of, yada yada yada. You cannot escepe the laws of thermodynamics. A phase change refrigeration system (read: fridge, air conditioner, chiller, whatever) is designed to move a maximum amount of heat (BTUs) per hour, and you cannot exceed that, even wtih a 100% efficient heat exchanger within the fridge. The cooling plants on fridges are NOT designed to cool hundreds of pounds of water, and are not designed to cool a load (tank, six packs, whatever) that is constantly having heat added to it by lights, pumps, the sun, room temperature, etc. People very often think this fact is irrelevant, but thinking so is akin to thinking that if you park a dorm fridge in a window of your house and leave the fridge door open, you get cheap air conditioning.
I'm sure nobody would argue with me in saying THAT won't work....
Your still talking about pulling down temp on a small system.....Again not really effective on a large body of water.....Geothermal use on a system isn't a new concept you've come up with.....Go over to reefcentral and that's been done numerous times by different folks.....
Agreed.
First of all, I've actually suggested a Geothermal system on several other threads here. There are two big problems. First, the expense of installation is so enormous compared to just buying a chiller that there is no point. Second, the risk of a tube rupturing and contaminating your tank is great, meaning you have to use heat exchangers which cut efficiency. Sure, 1% of us may have a huge yard that our wives don't mind us tearing up and a backhoe or ditch witch stashed in a hall closet, but the other 99% of us don't have either. :thinking:
The biggest misconception about the whole fridge/freezer/whatever idea to chill a tank is that the failure point is in the efficiency of the exchange within the fridge (how you build your coil, etc). People obsess over how to run their coil, how fast to pump the water, what material to make it out of, yada yada yada. You cannot escepe the laws of thermodynamics. A phase change refrigeration system (read: fridge, air conditioner, chiller, whatever) is designed to move a maximum amount of heat (BTUs) per hour, and you cannot exceed that, even wtih a 100% efficient heat exchanger within the fridge. The cooling plants on fridges are NOT designed to cool hundreds of pounds of water, and are not designed to cool a load (tank, six packs, whatever) that is constantly having heat added to it by lights, pumps, the sun, room temperature, etc. People very often think this fact is irrelevant, but thinking so is akin to thinking that if you park a dorm fridge in a window of your house and leave the fridge door open, you get cheap air conditioning.
acrylic51
Active Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
Agreed.
First of all, I've actually suggested a Geothermal system on several other threads here. There are two big problems. First, the expense of installation is so enormous compared to just buying a chiller that there is no point. Second, the risk of a tube rupturing and contaminating your tank is great, meaning you have to use heat exchangers which cut efficiency. Sure, 1% of us may have a huge yard that our wives don't mind us tearing up and a backhoe or ditch witch stashed in a hall closet, but the other 99% of us don't have either. :thinking:
The biggest misconception about the whole fridge/freezer/whatever idea to chill a tank is that the failure point is in the efficiency of the exchange within the fridge (how you build your coil, etc). People obsess over how to run their coil, how fast to pump the water, what material to make it out of, yada yada yada. You cannot escepe the laws of thermodynamics. A phase change refrigeration system (read: fridge, air conditioner, chiller, whatever) is designed to move a maximum amount of heat (BTUs) per hour, and you cannot exceed that, even wtih a 100% efficient heat exchanger within the fridge. The cooling plants on fridges are NOT designed to cool hundreds of pounds of water, and are not designed to cool a load (tank, six packs, whatever) that is constantly having heat added to it by lights, pumps, the sun, room temperature, etc. People very often think this fact is irrelevant, but thinking so is akin to thinking that if you park a dorm fridge in a window of your house and leave the fridge door open, you get cheap air conditioning.
I'm sure nobody would argue with me in saying THAT won't work....
Agreed.
First of all, I've actually suggested a Geothermal system on several other threads here. There are two big problems. First, the expense of installation is so enormous compared to just buying a chiller that there is no point. Second, the risk of a tube rupturing and contaminating your tank is great, meaning you have to use heat exchangers which cut efficiency. Sure, 1% of us may have a huge yard that our wives don't mind us tearing up and a backhoe or ditch witch stashed in a hall closet, but the other 99% of us don't have either. :thinking:
The biggest misconception about the whole fridge/freezer/whatever idea to chill a tank is that the failure point is in the efficiency of the exchange within the fridge (how you build your coil, etc). People obsess over how to run their coil, how fast to pump the water, what material to make it out of, yada yada yada. You cannot escepe the laws of thermodynamics. A phase change refrigeration system (read: fridge, air conditioner, chiller, whatever) is designed to move a maximum amount of heat (BTUs) per hour, and you cannot exceed that, even wtih a 100% efficient heat exchanger within the fridge. The cooling plants on fridges are NOT designed to cool hundreds of pounds of water, and are not designed to cool a load (tank, six packs, whatever) that is constantly having heat added to it by lights, pumps, the sun, room temperature, etc. People very often think this fact is irrelevant, but thinking so is akin to thinking that if you park a dorm fridge in a window of your house and leave the fridge door open, you get cheap air conditioning.
xdave
Active Member
acrylic51
IMO, heres what your response sounds like "I said it first, I said it first"
I refered to it as a "common" method, clearly not claiming it as an original idea. This person isn't reading your several other threads. I dont know if they have a wife or even a yard for that matter. Shovels only cost about $10. I was merely suggesting it as something they might look into, as it had not been mentioned. I will read all your posts so I won't repeat anything you've already said.
IMO, heres what your response sounds like "I said it first, I said it first"
I refered to it as a "common" method, clearly not claiming it as an original idea. This person isn't reading your several other threads. I dont know if they have a wife or even a yard for that matter. Shovels only cost about $10. I was merely suggesting it as something they might look into, as it had not been mentioned. I will read all your posts so I won't repeat anything you've already said.
scsinet
Active Member
xDave,
Sorry if we sound too blunt. I don't want to speak for Acrylic, but he and I have been responding to threads on DIY chillers for a long time now, and it gets frustrating when we keep rehashing the same arguments. Nothing is more frustrating than a person who asks "Will this work" and when we say "No" we get flamed for it... maybe it's put us unnecessarily on guard.
Offended as you may be, imagine it from our perspective, people get really angry with us for saying "it won't work," when all we are trying to do is keep people from wasting their time and energies on a fruitless endeavor. This too is very frustrating.
Nobody means anything personal; black and white text doesn't always convey inflection and tone of voice properly, and things come out wrong. Nobody wants to get anyone upset, and nobody is flaming you for not reading all the other posts, no offense intended.
Sorry if we sound too blunt. I don't want to speak for Acrylic, but he and I have been responding to threads on DIY chillers for a long time now, and it gets frustrating when we keep rehashing the same arguments. Nothing is more frustrating than a person who asks "Will this work" and when we say "No" we get flamed for it... maybe it's put us unnecessarily on guard.
Offended as you may be, imagine it from our perspective, people get really angry with us for saying "it won't work," when all we are trying to do is keep people from wasting their time and energies on a fruitless endeavor. This too is very frustrating.
Nobody means anything personal; black and white text doesn't always convey inflection and tone of voice properly, and things come out wrong. Nobody wants to get anyone upset, and nobody is flaming you for not reading all the other posts, no offense intended.
acrylic51
Active Member
Sorry to ruffle your feathers there XDave, but yes it has been beaten to the ground as mentioned by SCSInet, and no harm intended, but I don't just blow crap out here, and I've seen and tried and have followed threads like this many times over the years and regardless it just doesn't pan out and if you do spend the money on the titanium and such by the time the project is done regardless if it works or not it's still more than a chiller......Geothermal is an excellent idea, but really not feasible for most, but an option......
I think you take things way to personally here......I've disagreed many times with SCSInet and others like Squidd as well, but you take it all with a grain of salt and move and were still all friends.........Lighten up
I think you take things way to personally here......I've disagreed many times with SCSInet and others like Squidd as well, but you take it all with a grain of salt and move and were still all friends.........Lighten up