Dnitrification Via Live Rock. Maybe

[spanko]

Okay here is a scenario for ya.
On my last rescape, because I want a Jawfish, I took some of the rocks that had been above the sandbed previously and buried them. This to create a base for the rock structure and provide some under the sand tunnel options as the rocks provide "valleys" between them.
So the question is this now buried rock that had nitrifying bacteria on it has now been put into an area of extremely reduced oxygen.
1. Do you think any of the nitrifying bacteria has survived being buried under around 3-4 inches of sand?
2. Have I created more anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria to reside much the same as a DSB would do? I ask this because those internal areas in the rock that may have been on the edge of being an environment for the denitrifying bacteria are now even "more" anaerobic.
Phew.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2958988
Okay here is a scenario for ya.
On my last rescape, because I want a Jawfish, I took some of the rocks that had been above the sandbed previously and buried them. This to create a base for the rock structure and provide some under the sand tunnel options as the rocks provide "valleys" between them.
So the question is this now buried rock that had nitrifying bacteria on it has now been put into an area of extremely reduced oxygen.
1. Do you think any of the nitrifying bacteria has survived being buried under around 3-4 inches of sand?
2. Have I created more anaerobic area for denitrifying bacteria to reside much the same as a DSB would do? I ask this because those internal areas in the rock that may have been on the edge of being an environment for the denitrifying bacteria are now even "more" anaerobic.
Phew.

WHAT.?????????
Henry I don’t know if this is going to answer your Question.
The nitrifying bacteria need organic breakdown to survive. If they are not getting any while being submerged under the sand they will die. As far as denitrification even though the rock in under the sand it may be getting oxygen rich water through advection so no denitrification bacteria will colonize. That is one of the reasons live rock is hit or miss when it comes to nitrification. It in fact can be to porous and only oxygen rich water passes through

 

[natclanwy]

I agree with Joe, burying LR will not necessaraly create more habitat for anerobic bacteria depends on the porosity of the LR and the density of the sand. Like Joe said nutrients still need to be able to get to the bacteria and its these areas that are deprived of both nutrients and oxygen that hydrogen sulfide production exists which is not a good thing for your tank and the number one reason you don't want to disturb the deeper layers of a DSB, its not much of an issue if it occurs deep inside of a piece of rock though.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2959755
I agree with Joe, burying LR will not necessaraly create more habitat for anerobic bacteria depends on the porosity of the LR and the density of the sand. Like Joe said nutrients still need to be able to get to the bacteria and its these areas that are deprived of both nutrients and oxygen that hydrogen sulfide production exists which is not a good thing for your tank and the number one reason you don't want to disturb the deeper layers of a DSB, its not much of an issue if it occurs deep inside of a piece of rock though.
Thanks my good friend I need all the support I can get. Oh the checks in the mail

Seriously you do understand my point of view

 

[natclanwy]

No problem, I think there is a lot of confusion pertaining to the role LR and DSB play in denitrification and patience seems to be an extremely important factor with both. Neither is a quick fix for nitrates but I still think its good advice to add more LR for someone who is battling a nitrate problem and does not have enough LR so long as when the advice is given they understand that this is not an overnight fix for their problem and short term fixes like increased water changes will still need to be used to reduce the present nitrates until the denitrifying bacteria are able to keep up with the bioload.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2959887
No problem, I think there is a lot of confusion pertaining to the role LR and DSB play in denitrification and patience seems to be an extremely important factor with both. Neither is a quick fix for nitrates but I still think its good advice to add more LR for someone who is battling a nitrate problem and does not have enough LR so long as when the advice is given they understand that this is not an overnight fix for their problem and short term fixes like increased water changes will still need to be used to reduce the present nitrates until the denitrifying bacteria are able to keep up with the bioload.
My friend and in that is the problem. For denitrification bacteria to colonize they need food. Food in the way of nitrates. The water changes in fact deplete the availability of this food. So we have a situation where what is left after the water change is most likely being used by established anaerobic bacteria. My opinion and this is just mine. Stand back monitor you nitrates if they are not off the charts, let nature take its course

 

[natclanwy]

Stand back monitor you nitrates if they are not off the charts, let nature take its course
My thoughts exactly!!!
Its my opinion one of the biggest reasons for failure with DSB's is OCD and Impatence

, they can't stand for the sand bed to be dirty and can't wait for the cleanup crew, microfauna and the DSB to start doing there job and take matters into their own hands now we have mass H2S release into the tank water killing most if not all of the inhabitants.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2960059
My thoughts exactly!!!
Its my opinion one of the biggest reasons for failure with DSB's is OCD and Impatence

, they can't stand for the sand bed to be dirty and can't wait for the cleanup crew, microfauna and the DSB to start doing there job and take matters into their own hands now we have mass H2S release into the tank water killing most if not all of the inhabitants.

my friend do you know the joke about the old and young bull on the hill

 

[natclanwy]

Had to look it up and refresh my memory but yes I have heard the joke.

 

[spanko]

What has servicing a bunch of heifers got to do with this thread???

 

[1floridajoe]

Patients my good friend PATIENTS

 

[natclanwy]

Whats up with the new profile Joe?

 

[xlr8]

Man, I have a lot to learn. I thought that the cycle was :
Ammonia--->Nitrite--->Nitrate
Nitrate being the least toxic and regular water changes helped nitrates stay in check....
I'm I wrong?

 

[natclanwy]

Originally Posted by xlr8
http:///forum/post/2962801
Man, I have a lot to learn. I thought that the cycle was :
Ammonia--->Nitrite--->Nitrate
Nitrate being the least toxic and regular water changes helped nitrates stay in check....
I'm I wrong?
You have got the cycle correct but in a Saltwater tank you have the ability to make waste processing self sufficiant through the use of LR, DSB's, Macro Algae, and Good husbandry. My goal with my own tank was to have the tank as self reliant as possible and only use water changes first as a method of exporting toxic materials like heavy metals and other elements that will slowly buildup in a closed system and second to replentish trace minerals that are used up by the livestock in the tank.
This is really only important if you are keeping a Reef tank, a fish only system can tolerate fairly significant level of nitrate with no ill effects corals on the other hand are much more sensitive to high (>30ppm) nitrate levels.

 

[xlr8]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2963396
You have got the cycle correct but in a Saltwater tank you have the ability to make waste processing self sufficiant through the use of LR, DSB's, Macro Algae, and Good husbandry. My goal with my own tank was to have the tank as self reliant as possible and only use water changes first as a method of exporting toxic materials like heavy metals and other elements that will slowly buildup in a closed system and second to replentish trace minerals that are used up by the livestock in the tank.
This is really only important if you are keeping a Reef tank, a fish only system can tolerate fairly significant level of nitrate with no ill effects corals on the other hand are much more sensitive to high (>30ppm) nitrate levels.
So... Is regular water changes the only practical way to significantly lower nitrates(and other toxins) especially in a nano system ? I am planning a 29gal biocube soon and this will be my 1st attempt at SW. Currently running a FW tank. My goal also is to keep as close to a self reliant system as possible.

 

[natclanwy]

I'm not sure on a nano system if you can get it to process 100% of the nitrate since you don't have much room for rock or a DSB but you should be able to get close. The most important thing when trying to set up a system to process 100% of the waste is to keep your bioload light, on a 29g tank you are looking at 2 maybe 3 fish total. Another option would be to setup a sump and refugium so that you have a larger volume of water and a place to grow macro algae.
In the begining though you are right water changes are going to be the only practical way to reduce nitrates if they are too high until your system matures and is able to support a population of denitrifying bacteria large enough to process the available nitrate.