Does white spot linger in DT after fish removed?

[luckykat]

First I'd like to say thanks for all the wonderful info & advice I've found here. I've spent many hours reading articles and posts and found the answers I've needed to take me through new tank syndrome, cyano, diatom outbreaks, hair algae, high phosphate issues and all that goes NOT according to plan.
I've just recently starting adding fish to my new (4 mos up) 55 gal. reef tank and have 2 LFS, one of which all my fish have come from. I thought the guy seemed very knowledgeable until a few weeks ago when I was admiring a fish that I knew I couldn't have because I learned here that my tank would be too small. So when I declined and told him why and where I found my info he says, 'Those people don't know what they're talking about, who you gonna listen to, someone who's had 18 years experience or wanna be's?' (Clue #1) Well, although I've only posted once, I feel like I know a lot of you from reading everything and following instructions and advice to others, and started to doubt his 'experience'. Then last week I got a new fish and brought up a concern that Coral Beauty has a pop eye and I noticed white spots on the fins of another. He said don't worry about the spots if they aren't causing a problem (Clue #2) and the eye issue could have been caused by bubbles in the water, as I had been fooling with the powerheads and circulation pump and admitted that I had inadvertantly caused some bubbles that could have affected the fish. He said it would probably go away in time.
Long story short, fin spot fish died (had 9 days) and new fish today (had 4 days). Now kicking myself for not doing quarantine but will get that up and running Tuesday so maybe I can save my 2 firefish and Coral Beauty.
My question for now is even if these fish live through treatment, will the initial infection still survive in the DT that has potential to re-infect? There is a CBS and Emerald Crab with various corals (that came from SWF) and plants that will be left in there. I do weekly 25% water changes with RO and top off with fresh, and I know you're going to want testing results, but I left my log book on the table when I left for work this afternoon. I can tell you that everthing tested perfect except Calcium was low at 380 and still have some phosphate at .5 (down from 10+ 2 mos ago). Am dosing for calcium and alkalinity and continue to bring phosphates down.

 

[gemmy]

Welcome to the site!! I think if you can quarantine the fish for at least 6-8 weeks (just my opinion), that would help drastically reduce the risk of the fish contracting the illness. Then, just make sure to QT new additions.

 

[geoj]

If the white spot was Cryptocaryon irritans Then you would want to run the DT fallow with no fish to kill off the pest.
The average life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is 3 weeks.
3 weeks will give you a 68% chance that you have eradicated the parasite. Leaving a tank fallow for 6 weeks will give you a 95%, 72 days has been the longest lived pest recorded in a study. So a 9 week fallow period will give you 99.7% chance to kill off Cryptocaryon irritans.

 

[gemmy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///t/391952/does-white-spot-linger-in-dt-after-fish-removed#post_3478346
If the white spot was Cryptocaryon irritans Then you would want to run the DT fallow with no fish to kill off the pest.
The average life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is 3 weeks.
3 weeks will give you a 68% chance that you have eradicated the parasite. Leaving a tank fallow for 6 weeks will give you a 95%, 72 days has been the longest lived pest recorded in a study. So a 9 week fallow period will give you 99.7% chance to kill off Cryptocaryon irritans.
Thanks for being more specific. I went back and read my post and it didn't come across the way I wanted it to.

 

[geoj]

You are welcome, any thing I can do to help...
I just went through this process my self. I pulled my one fish from the DT and in three weeks he looked cured of Ich. It did take all my patience to keep him out of the DT for the rest of 10 weeks. Yet, I was able to do it and all is clear as of now.

 

[luckykat]

Wow, thanks for the precision! If I may ask, what product did you use and did you do complete water changes? I read one article that the author changed 10 QT tank on a daily basis to help eradicate the critters. I think that would put the fish under even more stress?

 

[geoj]

I use the Hyposalinity procedure. In a bare bottom tank. The only change was to take a flashlight each morning and suction out the bottom of the tank. If you have good eye sight and shine the light just right you can see the parasite on the bottom. It looks like salt and pepper grains.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/a/hyposalinity

 

[beth]

I'm not certain I agree with the stats you posted Geo, but it doesn't hurt to leave the display fallow longer than the 3-4 weeks. There are so many factors to consider when people come up with success rates for treating parasites, that I have to question if some other error or consideration did not factor in. Animals such as parasites have very predictable life cycles.
Hyposalinity is your best bet for treatment. And, most certainly, using a quarantine is the only peace of mind you will have when acquiring new fish.
The guy at the LFS is first and foremost trying to sell. Never forget that. I'm not trying to say the guy purposely lied, most likely he did not know better. Any fish that has anything that is wrong with it should be avoided, unless you are prepared to appropriately deal with a sick fish.
I'm curious, what fish did the LFS guy think was ok for a 55?

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJ http:///t/391952/does-white-spot-linger-in-dt-after-fish-removed#post_3478436
I use the Hyposalinity procedure. In a bare bottom tank. The only change was to take a flashlight each morning and suction out the bottom of the tank. If you have good eye sight and shine the light just right you can see the parasite on the bottom. It looks like salt and pepper grains.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/a/hyposalinity
Geo, the only time that the parasite is visible is when you see the white spots on the fish. Even then, all you are seeing is the parasite's protective encasing. However, cleaning out the bottom of a bare-bottom tank is a good idea, especially in a new tank that has not been cycled.

 

[geoj]

I was keeping it simple, so to be more clear, the salt and pepper grains I was describing was the protective encasing. When the parasite drops off, it forms this encasing and as I said before with good eye sight and a flash light shined at the bottom you can see the parasite in its encasing.

 

[geoj]

I'm not certain I agree with the stats you posted Geo, but it doesn't hurt to leave the display fallow longer than the 3-4 weeks.  There are so many factors to consider when people come up with success rates for treating parasites, that I have to question if some other error or consideration did not factor in.  Animals such as parasites have very predictable life cycles.
Hyposalinity is your best bet for treatment.  And, most certainly, using a quarantine is the only peace of mind you will have when acquiring new fish.
The guy at the LFS is first and foremost trying to sell.  Never forget that.  I'm not trying to say the guy purposely lied, most likely he did not know better.  Any fish that has anything that is wrong with it should be avoided, unless you are prepared to appropriately deal with a sick fish.
I'm curious, what fish did the LFS guy think was ok for a 55?
It is ok to have a different opinion. This is what I expected because of the many conflicting studies. My info comes from the work other people have done and their posts and links to sources. I can't supply you with those posts links as they come from a competing forum. Perhaps I might find their source links. If I remember correctly the main sources come from fish farm studies. Once you have the known shortest and longest lifespan you plot the data to create the percentages. The information is valid and my reasoning for posting it is to allow you to decide the time frame that you are comfortable with. So that we don't have to argue, that hay the study that I read said this or that, because all the major respected information has been included in the percentages of the plotted data.

 

[geoj]

Hyposalinity is your best bet for treatment.  And, most certainly, using a quarantine is the only peace of mind you will have when acquiring new fish.
Have you used the transfer method Beth?

 

[beth]

I have been 100% satisfied with hypo, so I haven't done the transfer. It is obviously a bit more of an effort than hypo and I am a strong advocate of keeping sick fish as stress free as possible.
I am aware of the studies, none which that I have encountered were all that scientific. There are so many things that someone can do to inadvertantly introduce ich in a system without even realizing it, particularly in a place like a fish farm. Haven't been convinced yet.

 

[luckykat]

Beth, I was looking at a Naso Tang, but I already knew I couldn't have that. What a beautiful fish, is at the top of my list for when I upgrade! So I got my QT tank set up and tried to catch my fish, they were having none of that. Spent all day tearing down my tank and chasing them around so I can save their lives. Ironic, isn't it? Nothing ever easy...LOL I may have lost a feather duster and shroom or two in the melee. I decided to use Cupramine instead of hypo because tomorrow, Thursday is my Monday when I go back to work and have been pulling 12 hour days without notice so it would be difficult for me to keep a good water treatement schedule. Thanks again.

 

[gemmy]

A word of caution is make sure you accurately test the water for the copper.

 

[geoj]

I have been 100% satisfied with hypo, so I haven't done the transfer.  It is obviously a bit more of an effort than hypo and I am a strong advocate of keeping sick fish as stress free as possible.
 
I am aware of the studies, none which that I have encountered were all that scientific.  There are so many things that someone can do to inadvertantly introduce ich in a system without even realizing it, particularly in a place like a fish farm.  Haven't been convinced yet. 
Beth, I do under stand that you are a hypo advocate. Don't forget that hypo is not practical for everyone. We have an open forum where everyone is welcome. So don't exclude people that my not have the time to hypo or people where the cost of a third or fourth system makes hypo unpractical.

 

[beth]

GeoJ, I'm surprised that you would ask me not to exclude someone because they choose not to do hypo. My recommendations are pretty much based on what I think is best given the individual situation. For instance, LuckyKat just set up a QT which means it is not cycled. Choosing copper over hypo is extremely risky in her situation because her time is limited due to work and she can not monitor her tank closely. Copper will have a negative impact on a well established QT, so imagine what it will do in an uncycled fish tank that isn't going to be monitored fairly close.
I have no problem with people choosing other viable treatments when the circumstances are ok to do so. In fact, I have seen more members here strongly pushing others to do hypo "just because". I try to give my advice and it is always up to the hobbyist to decide what to do about their problem. If I push anything, it is that the hobbyist seeking help is aware of the whole picture. What will happen if one thing is choosen over the other.
If LuckyKat reads this, then she will know that there is a potential problem with her plan to use copper. What she does with that info, is up to her.
My comment about the transfer method was to say that I have no direct experience with it, since I have experienced 100% effectiveness using hypo and found no need to try out a more involved method to deal with ich.