Dog Whisperer

[angelman]

How many watch Cesar Millan as the Dog Whisperer?
I have three dogs and I find Cesar to be amazing.
What makes him so good is that he never accepted conventional wisdom as it relates to training a dog.
He believed he could "rehabilitate" a dog, rather than just train him.
He has proved to be very successful and if anyone watches his show, you know exactly what I mean.
How the heck does that all relate to aggressive fish? Easy.
If you are not thick skinned, don't read on.
If you are stubborn in your thinking, don't read on.
If you want something that can potentially be very useful, read on.
I made up mind to set out to dispell rumors on Angels.
I decided I would prove I could house as many as I wanted to, as healthy as anyone with just one in a tank.
Furthermore, they would live with no bacterial infections or unexplained deaths.
I was able to at one point have as many as 13, in a 75 Gallon tank for nearly a year. One of which was an 8" Emperor (approximately). I later moved them all to my current 225.
Below is a photo of how I "rehabilitated" my fish to temper their aggression. I have these containers in many sizes so as to comfortably accomodate any fish. Depending on my need, I resort to the appropriate size.
I basically took containers found at Wal-mart and drilled holes all over them.
I take the fish once he has been in QT long enough an ready for the show tank and place him in the container.
I then place the container in the back of the tank, sheltered by some rock so the fish does not feel left out in the open.
I then observe all their behaviors.
Many will just pass by the container and continue on their way. Don't have to worry about those guys as they proved to me they are OK with that new guy in there.
Some will hang out for a while and keep coming back but not too aggressive, just more curious. In time, their curiosity subsides and they no longer care.
Lastly, there is the aggressive guy ticked off that new fish is in there. He may take longer. Give him time. A day or so. Check and see how they are doing. If no longer a problem, feel absolutely OK with releasing the new guy. All will be fine.
If there is still some aggression, reverse the roles.
Stick the aggressor in the container and release the new one.
Amazing how their attitudes re-adjust.
Lastly, if possible, move some rocks around if necessary to confuse everyone into thinking they are all in a new tank.
Hope this lunacy works as well as it has worked for me for nearly 10 years now in not only my tank, but that of my customers when I had my business. And no, none ever died from doing this to them.
Here are a couple of my containers:

 

[ccampbell57]

This might be my new tactic once I place my Queen and Clown trigger into the DT.
I sneaze around the DT with my Hippo and she gets ich...

 

[mach03infront]

hmmmmm....very interesting thanks for sharing!

 

[kjr_trig]

Fascinating stuff! Were most of your angels junviniles upon purchase? So what about a day in the container usually? That would have worked nicely with my Achilles, he was brutal to any new fish.

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by kjr_trig
Fascinating stuff! Were most of your angels junviniles upon purchase? So what about a day in the container usually? That would have worked nicely with my Achilles, he was brutal to any new fish.
All varied sizes.
Small to large.

 

[azul1994]

Cool, thanks for the idea!

 

[michaeltx]

I dont see this as an option myself I can see many things that can go wrong with this aproach plus I personaly dont think its a human thing to do.
it would be like throwing a full grow dog into a kennal because he was to playful or a little aggressive to the current dogs in the house. there are things that can happen from broken bones to joint problems and such in dogs.
I dont think putting a fish in a small container within the tank is the way to go. there are different ways to isolate the fish within the tank where they also have room to move around like a tank divider leave a spot in the rocks for the divider to go into and your good to go to isolate the fish from the others.
JMO
Mike

 

[ophiura]

What I find interesting about Cesar is that he focuses A LOT on the NATURAL instincts of the dog. Of the pack mentality...
It does not mean taking a dog, and forcing it to deny its instinct, as this is trying to do with fish...
What you have noted is nothing knew. People do introduce fish and watch for aggression, etc. It is not impossible by any means. Anyone who says, as a standard answer, you can only keep one angel in a tank is wrong...but I find the "as many as I want" point rather interesting.
Dogs are pack animals - social animals - by nature. They respect a dominant animal, often a female, instinctively. So when treated as a member of the pack (a word Cesar uses all the time) they can be "put in their place" so to speak. It is their NATURAL state as opposed to the little dressed up spoiled things we make them.
Many angelfish are not quite in the same behavioral pattern...
IMO, it is in no way like what "the dog whisperer" advocates. You can overwhelm the instinct of these animals by cramming so many together that their aggression, or rather the ability of one fish to dominate, appears to be overcome. But it is not quite the same thing. So I am definitely confused

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
I dont see this as an option myself I can see many things that can go wrong with this aproach plus I personaly dont think its a human thing to do.
But risk the chance of it being destroyed when you introduce it to the tank is more humane?
Taking a fish out of the ocean and isolating him in a small tank (anyone's show tank at home) relative to his natural environment in the ocean is more humane?
Aren't they caught in the ocean, placed in a small container, placed on a boat then taken to the collector's place of business? They then don't travel from 24 to 48 hours in a bag significantly smaller than my container just to get to the importer, then go in a similar bag and fly yet again to get to the wholesaler, to then go into another bag to go to the LFS so you can buy him and to be placed in yet another small bag until you get home and place him in your tank? Is that more humane? In many instances, I left out a few in between stops here. Many times, more folks involved in the middle. As an example, many fish that come to the east coast are often delivered to west coast companies, acclimated, re-bagged and re-shipped to ensure they make the trip from one side of the world to here safely.
I think the biggest misconception is that everyone thinks they are so, so fragile. They are, but they went through a heck of a lot just to get to you. They didn't sit in first class with a glass of wine, yet they made it to your home. One more time in a container with more leg room won't finish them off.
I respect all opinions but would kindly suggest you read your words again and re-think it based on what I just cited for you.
Humane indeed is what I do.
They feel sheltered by the rock.
They are protected by the container.
Should the aggression persist, I am able to "humanely" pull him out and return him to where I got him from or give him to someone else and not have him destroyed by aggressive tank mates.
I am simply giving the fish a chance to accept one another in the tank without any aggression that will result in harm to any of them.
That to me is truly humane and more importantly, for me, it has worked like a charm. Furthermore, I have done it will all fish, not just angels. Try it with a couple of tangs that just don't like each other. Try it if you have an aggessive tang and are introducing a new angel. Many examples apply.
To be more humane than that would mean lets get out of the hobby and leave them as they are in the ocean. That is truly the definition of humane and yet we don't do it. Given we violate this level of humane, why is temporarily protecting them in a container from possible harm until all settles down not humane, specially if it works to have tankmates accept him?

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by ophiura
So I am definitely confused

Don't be.
Let the video and stills speak for themselves.
After all, seeing IS believing.

BTW, the Dog Whisperer analogy is intended only for comparing one to another only in that Cesar never accepted conventional wisdom relative to how to train a dog. That is where the analogy ends.
I never accepted conventional wisdom on how to introduce fish to a tank or how many to have.
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=287196

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by AngelMan
But risk the chance of it being destroyed when you introduce it to the tank is more humane?...
You're arguing as though improperly stocking an aquarium is the only available option; It is not.
Tanks do not have to be stocked with tankmates that potentially want to kill each other.

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
You're arguing as though improperly stocking an aquarium is the only available option; It is not.
Tanks do not have to be stocked with tankmates that potentially want to kill each other.
Who is arguing?
Where exactly did you read "it is the only available option"? Why would this be considered "improperly stocking" if the fish all adapt, live healthy, happy and a long life? Just saying it can be in fact done.
Let me ask you, have you ever, ever introduced a fish, to a lightly stocked tank, that didn't result in some aggression towards the new fish?
Did this ever, ever happen to you or anyone?
Well, since chances are it did, this is a method to alleviate it.
Next, why would you say you don't have to be stocked with tankmates that potentially want to kill each other? Do you think that is what I am saying or doing? Where exactly did you read that in this thread? Does my story have a horrible ending or a happy one? Do you see that from the videos and photos I attached? Do they look like sick and improperly treated fish that attack each other? Why do people take things to the extreme? Why would you think I support stocking a tank to a level that it harms beautiful creatures that I paid a whole lot of money for? It is upsurd to take that somehow out of what has been stated by me thus far. Do you realize two of my fish can buy a car? Why would I spend that king of money and risk their death? I am not supporting dropping a shrimp in a shark tank. Why would that be percieved?
This is sharing an experience of what I have accomplished successfully, for the past 10 years. I am amazed how quick folks on this forum are to dismiss what they can't conceive or have yet to try. I am amazed how in spite of photo and video evidence, folks can persist with old mindsets/theories. If one prefers to buy a fish and drop him in his tank and watch him be beaten up, regardless of how compatible you thought they might be (has this happened to anyone?), then by all means, do that if seen more humane.

 

[earlybird]

I know nothing about Angels but wan't to mention the Dog Whisperer. I've only seen a few episodes but it appears that it wasn't the dog than needed rehab but the owners need who need the lessons. I can't believe his show is still on.
Every "bad" dog that I know has a "bad" owner.

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by earlybird
I can't believe his show is still on.
I would assume you therefore exercise your option to select another channel and allow the rest of who watch this show that some can't believe is still on?

 

[earlybird]

Originally Posted by AngelMan
I would assume you therefore exercise your option to select another channel and allow the rest of who watch this show that some can't believe is still on?

Yep yep

 

[kthomas]

It's funny that the "Dog Whisperer" is used as an example in treating fish humanely...since the Humane Society is anti-Dog Whisperer and his dominance techniques and have asked that his show be taken off the air. That being said, I don't know much about aggressive fish but I know a lot about dogs.

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by kthomas
It's funny that the "Dog Whisperer" is used as an example in treating fish humanely...since the Humane Society is anti-Dog Whisperer and his dominance techniques and have asked that his show be taken off the air. That being said, I don't know much about aggressive fish but I know a lot about dogs.

Folks,
It was intended as a humorous analogy.
Whether you agree with Cesar or not or like the show or not, can we get over that?
It was an analogy that his gig is to "rehabiliate" dogs. You may not like his techniques as some have expressed it is not humane to put them in a container, which I have already explained they go through worse to get to you in the first place.
I set out to see how I could get fish that are normally said to be aggressive to each other and show I could successfully house them in one tank, healthy, happy and for a long time.
I have a thick skin and frankly don't take offense to any of what has been stated thus far.
I don't take offense until which time someone takes a personal shot, which has not happened here.
However, I have enjoyed my short stay on this forum and will leave it to those of you that know more, have seen the world on photos so therefore you don't need to travel, and have conceived every possible idea known to man and can therefore dismiss the theories of a nearly 50 yr old, that has owned an aquarium business with over 25 regular rich maintenance customers with tanks over 250 gallons, that has installed many custom built tanks, that has owned many of my current fish for nearly 10 years, whose son worked for the largest importer in South Florida, whose 2,500 gallon display tank I designed and installed the filtration system. I guess my experience can be readily dismissed by so many on this forum that have achieved much more than that in the hobby.
Hope some have enjoyed the information and found it informative. Hope some some try it and can return some day to attest to it yourselves.
The rest, enjoy the theory of the world being flat. I have frankly better things to do and have seen a number of threads/posts where it appears taking shots at folks is more the norm here. I could be wrong. Apoligies in advance if I am. For those that have enjoyed the information, I will leave the videos and photos. If you see me sign on, have been waiting for a couple PMs so may be checking. Regards. Signing out.

 

[michaeltx]

well analogy or not its not the same and on top of that I didnt degrade nore did anyone else flat out say you are being ridiculous with you techniques. The problem is that many people come on and say hey this is what I do and have had great sucess with it yadda yadda yadda. Now a new person to the hobby comes on reads your post and decides hey I have a 225 I am going to do the same thing and use those techniques alittle bit later comes on and says everything went bad what happeded. We are here to help people from making mistakes so when a thread comes up that isnt the normal and sounds like " hey do this and youll be alright look at my tank for proof" we have to give other opinions and challenge the notion so that others see possible problems and not just one case of it working sp that they can make an informed decision on their own since we cant make anyone do anything!!>
Mike

 

[earlybird]

I don't understand I guess?
Is this what he wanted?

 

[angelman]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
well analogy or not its not the same and on top of that I didnt degrade nore did anyone else flat out say you are being ridiculous with you techniques. The problem is that many people come on and say hey this is what I do and have had great sucess with it yadda yadda yadda. Now a new person to the hobby comes on reads your post and decides hey I have a 225 I am going to do the same thing and use those techniques alittle bit later comes on and says everything went bad what happeded. We are here to help people from making mistakes so when a thread comes up that isnt the normal and sounds like " hey do this and youll be alright look at my tank for proof" we have to give other opinions and challenge the notion so that others see possible problems and not just one case of it working sp that they can make an informed decision on their own since we cant make anyone do anything!!>
Mike
So you are saying that disregard the door knob. Lets keep banging our heads into the door rather than trying something new that someone has shown us can work, only because we don't know it of have heard of it?