Dont do what happened to me... Help!!!

[fishieness]

On saterday (4 days ago) i bought 2 pieces of live rock from my local fish store. They said it was cured, it didnt smell, and it had been in the tank for 2.5 weeks because that was their last shipment. So i brought it home and put it in my tank. Today i noticed my little snowflake eel was barely breathing and is almost limp! I tested everything, and all the other ifsh looked fine. So everything was fine until i tested my pH. It was atound 7.2 or so!!!! So i took the live rock out and have it in a bucket-thingy curing right now. I added some pH up and i have an alkalinity tester and booster. Do i add that after i get the pH to be a normal reading again?! or do i add it now?!
is there anythign else i can do? I assume water changes would be necessary and helpful.
Any more advice"?!
please?!!
All my fish look to be doing good, except my snowflake eel!~!
javascript:smilie('

')..which is whats confusing me... but i can be greatful for that at least!!
i added some pH up and now im off to get tons of water for changes!

 

[fishieness]

just did some water changes and more to come later... i also added some pH+. pH is at about 7.8 right now... i dont want to go too far in the period of a night... and since the fish were never used to it being so low, the difference from around 7.0-7.8or9 shouldnt be too bad for them...
any more advice from people?

 

[tizzo]

Quit adding the PH up until you figure out why the PH is down!!!
You should have a teeter-totter balance of calcium and alk. Calcium about 400 and alk anywhere from 8 to 11.
When you add those PH "buffers", your raising the alk...and raising the alk...and raising the alk...
That will not correct your problem, unless your alk is low but it wouldn't be caused by adding LR.
Test your ammonia level. ammonia and nitrates will cause your PH to drop. Forgive me if you already did but as soon as I read that you kept adding buffer, I started speed typing. Bang posted about recently in more detail, lemme see if I can find that thread for you...

 

[tizzo]

183 posts by Bang using the word "raise"...
Well, I though it was interesting.
OH, here ya go!!
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...ighlight=raise

 

[tizzo]

Questions for you...
The water that your LR is in now, have you tested the params??
You said you have an alkalinity tester, which kind is it??

 

[fishieness]

the alkalinity is at the ideal range according to the tester. I jsut mentioned all the things that i have that may have anything to do with the problem just to tell you guys what i have. I have not added any of the buffer-up because i knew it wasnt good if the level was fine. The ph-up stuff was added to get the water to at least a level that was possible for survival. The live rock is out in a little tub of salt water.
My amonia has raised a little since i added the live rock in. But its still around .05
the same thing for the trates. those are at about 40. Which, according to my tester, is right before a stressed level.
The alkalinity tester i have is just one of the Mardel 5-in-1 test strips.
just to clear things up, i didnt add any buffering thinies, jsut things to raise to pH to a level possible for my fish to survive.
My snowflake seems to be doing better today. He is still hanging a bit out of the holes in the live rock, but his head is moving. I was so scared he was dead yesterday because he was literaly complty limp on the bottom of the tank!! I have him a soft nudge with the feeder stick because i was sure he was dead! Lets just say, it was not a good night last night. I was so stressed out and frustrated that my fish wouldnt make it, i broke my tooth brush because i was so tense and i was brushing my teeth so hard.
The perametors of the live rock... am yet to test amonia, but ill do that in a few mins and get back to you, but the pH is at around 7.0..... I am yet to add enough salt though just because i was so worried last night and all the salt hasnt dissolved.
As far as the problem im pretty sure its the new live rock because i added it saterday afternoon, and my eel was doing bad and i took all the measurements on monday.
Thanks for helping out.

 

[mudplayerx]

Live rock really shouldn't affect your PH. Low PH is often the result of too little water flowing through the system. Do this test.
Get a half gallon of water from your tank and put it in a bucket. Put an airstone in it, or a powerhead with the air hose installed. Let it aerate vigorously for 24 hours.
After 24 hours, test the PH in the tank, then test the PH in the bucket. If the PH in the bucket is 0.2 or more higher than the tank, then you need more water flow in the tank.
At least 10x turnover is recommended for fish only tanks, and 20x to 25x is recommended for reef tanks.
Make sure that if you use ph/alkalinity buffer that you only add as much as the bottle tells you to, and you wait 24 hours and retest the ph/alkalinity before adding more.
Keep in mind that topoffs usually contain water with a PH of 7.0. This is another reason that no more than 1% of your total tank volume should be added during a topoff in a 24 hour period.

 

[fishieness]

ok ill set that up now. Its not the amount of CO2 in my house like the post from bang suggested it to be either. I did that test after letting it sit outside and nothing happened. I dont htink i have a 15X turnover rate. I jsut have the filter that came with my eclipse tank. I think its only around an 8X topps. Ill havae to add something to get that going.. any advice?

 

[mudplayerx]

Hang on power filters with the filter media removed are great for water flow. You can easily add 660 gph to your tank for under $70

 

[fishieness]

awsome! ill look into that. I cant quite picture what yout talking about though.. Are you talking about almost a hang on filter without the bulky back? would you happen to have a picture of what you mean?
Ok, i have school tomorrow so im going to bed. Thanks for your help so late at night.

 

[sammiefish]

die off will cause a decrease in pH,
there was die-off as evidenced by the increase in ammonia...
ie: decaying protein... amino acids... amino ~ ammonia...

 

[fishieness]

i think it might be a mix between a die off of the live rock, but my filtration couldnt handle it. I probably need more filtration. The filter that came with it is 250 gph and its a 29 gallon tank. So thats a bit over 8 gph. I am setting up a larger tank for my snowflake eel and i would like to put some corals and things in it. Its a 40 breeder and has a 300 Gph filter on it. I plan on getting a protein skimmer before i get any corals or anything. And i think some powerjets might be neccessary.
But i tried airating my water in a little cup thingy. The batteriest ran out so it wasnt even going for 7 hours, but the pH went to about 7.9-8.0 form 7.8

 

[mudplayerx]

I would say you need more water flow. Go to Walmart or anywhere you can get discounted pet items. Buy yourself the type of power filter that hangs on the back... it looks like a black box with a tube that goes into the tank. The water spills back into the tank via a waterfall-looking device.
Some good brands are Emperor, Penguin, Regent. Try to get the largest model you can fit on the back of your 29 gallon. Get two if you need to. These will significantly increase your water flow and as a bonus, they will add a gallon or two of water capacity to your system.
I converted mine into fuges. What I did was take out the carbon media and the biomedia and replaced it with live sand inside of nylon stockings.
ps- although I agree with others that two pieces of live rock may cause a spike in the cycle, I doubt that it would affect PH. I put over 50 pounds of slightly cured rock into a 55 gallon and it didn't affect my PH at all. In fact, I never even got a spike in the nitrogen cycle (but my system is established)

 

[fishieness]

i just went to *****, i got a penguin 1140 powerhead for about 35 bucks. Not bad for something that has a 300 gph water flow. so combined with my filter i have 550 gph water glow. Thats about 17X. I hope that will do much better. I notice my little valentinie is getting used to the extra power. hes getting blown around a little bit.
tomorrow morning before school ill test the pH and see how that does.
oh, okay, i see about the live rock... Somewhere i thought i heard that it could lower the pH if it wasnt cycles. NVM about that then
i cant put normal hang on things on my tank because its an eclipse so the top doesnt allow anything to go on the back.

 

[sammiefish]

as a biochemist by trade.. let me assure you ... "die off" WILL cause a decrease in pH... it will be especially evident if you dont have enough biological base to handle the excess ammonia, as you said fishiness.
Mud, as you stated, I agree it is certainly related to the "established"-ness of ones tank
as far as the pH going up in a bucket of water...
put tank water in a bucket with no filtration, stirring, powerhead or anything... the pH will go up all by itself... try it...
as the CO2 that is dissolved in the tank water dissipates to the atmosphere... (there should be a minimum of animals, or plants without light, carrying out cellular respiration still in the water that is in the bucket) the pH goes up... when you use PH's or airstones this just speeds up the process of CO2 dissipation...
so ... to really do your test... you need to do 2 buckets of water... one with agitation and one without agitation... if the pH rises in both buckets at the same rate then you are fine with the agitation you have in your tank.. if not then you would benefit from more agitation... what do ya think?

 

[fishieness]

i want to be a biochemist.. preferable marine biology. but anyways... are you saying to put a normal bucket of tank water and let it sit out with nothing to stir it? and if the pH rises at the same rate then my water has enough organisms in it that is creating the release of Co2 by cellular respiration....
And if the pH would rise at the same rate with and without any movement of the water, wouldnt that mean that it was not the airation of the water that was the problem, but the live rock after all from the die off? My amonia is not at 0 like it was, but it isnt considered high. ill give that a try though. Weather or not it was because of lack or airation, i still needed more anyways. I didnt think it was because of the lack of airation though because this happened suddenly, and i had had this filter in the tank sincei got it since it came with the tank. The tank is only 3 months old, so the lack of esstablishment would make sence with my tank. I am still assuming it is from the live rock. My pH is back up to about 7.8 right now without those piece of live rock in it and the extra airation of my new powerhead.
I still find it odd though that only my eel seems to be affected by the sudden decrease in pH and now my maroon clown or my valentini puffer (my goby has been hiding since a few days before this happened, so i cant realy speak for him)

 

[sammiefish]

dont get me wrong... I think your tank could benfit from a ton of circulation... as mud said. Like light, its not a bad thing...
as far as the biochemist thing... great work but if you want to pursue marine biology I recommend talking to someone who is actually in the field... I think jobs are tough to come by and not generally very high paying... but thats just the rumor... One buddy of mine who studied marine biology in college is now cleaning fish tanks at marineland... and again.. not very high paying and not really challenging him intellecutally, (but certainly not all bad). I think to make a good living at it you should seriously think about planning for a Master's or PhD. Im in the anti-tumor cancer research thing and also teach at the community college here. Jobs in the medical / research aspect of things I think are more plentiful and generally speaking, higher paying.... but certainly no less interesting. Good luck in your biological pursuits!!

 

[fishieness]

since i put in the power head, my pH is how at 8.0!!
sammie fish, thats for the suggestions, ill look into it. im only in 10 grade so i still have time to decide. but that wasnt the only thing i planned on being if i get a degree in that. i would also lvoe to do theater, either strait track or musical.. and of course, professional bass fisherman.
my nitrate rose a hell of a lot to about 50-60.... probably from the extra amonia cycling through the die off. but my nitrates are still at 0.
thanks so much for your help guys!
havent seen my eel in the few mins since i got home, but hes a good hider.

 

[kendall]

Seio from Marine Depot retails for $38 and kicks 620gph...Only consumes 8watts...IMO, it's the best powerhead on the market..That combined with a maxi-jet for the surface and you solve all your water flow problems...Sounds to me like the penguin is decent, not sure how big it is though...
Bring the PH slowly back up to 8.2 over a few days...Then whenever you do water changes, test right after....
They have PH buffer that auto-sets it at 8.2...Use that after you get it there...PH can fluctuate during a day, .3 is okay I would think...

 

[kendall]

Ha!! I was doing a search and responded to this post randomly...I just realized it was over 2 months old...How is the PH situation?!