Dont flame me for this but im starting a freshwater tank and wondering....

[blj1234]

Hey man, I'm a freshwater, trying to figure this salt water thing. I do know that live sand in freshwater tanks probably won't work, but their is probably some special sand for fw tanks. I would HIGHLY recomend going to <a href="http://www.aquariumfish.net." target="_blank">www.aquariumfish.net.</a> This is a good place to buy fish and they are good at answering questions. Their like the saltwaterfish.com, but for freshwater.
Freshwater fish are not even as close as sw with how much they can take. But you still have to let the water in the tank get into the "cycle." One thing is for sure is that freshwater fish are NOT EVEN close to sw fish in the topic of color. Unlike SW fish, freshwater fish don't have the deepness in color and smell if the tank is not cleaned enough. Alege grows on the glass and makes it not clear.
Hope the web site helps you <img src="graemlins//yell.gif" border="0" alt="[yell]" /> <img src="graemlins//uhuh.gif" border="0" alt="[U-Huh]" />

 

[luke]

blj1234 - Why don't you think it would work??
Luke

 

[blj1234]

P.S.-FW tanks are easy to keep, except if you buy some fish that are from the amazon.
<img src="graemlins//yell.gif" border="0" alt="[yell]" /> FRESHWATER TANKS ARE ALOT CHEAPER THAN FRESHWATER. about 10 times as cheap- Their good for breeding fish. I'm keeping my fw, but getting a sw/ <img src="graemlins//dead.gif" border="0" alt="[dead]" />
Oh yeah, DON'T BUY FISH AT WAL-MART, THEY STARVE THEIR FISH, AND HAVE DISEASES!

 

[broomer5]

Wow ... long post - but good !
1) Don't use aragonite sand in a freshwater tank. As said, it will drive your pH up, and your hardness will be unreal. Best to stick to other substrates or land sands.
Also - avoid river sand - no control on what you may get.
2) Live Sand Secrets" that DSB's and Plenums actually may perform even better in freshwater aquaria? I think Goemans talks about that the data isn't really in yet but the initial reports are excellent... YEP I agree that the jury is still out on this.
3) The whold DSB O2 discussion is great. You all make valid points - but contradictions abound depending on what you read, who you believe, and our own individual grasp on the actual biochemistry that occurs thoughout the sandbed.
According to Dr. Robert J. Goldstein;
"Certain bacteria, namely the Denitrobacillus, Micrococcus, Thiobacillus, Pseudomanas and Sulfomondas all can live in either an aerobic or anaerobic portion of the sandbed".
The key is to have a DSB that allows an O2 gradiant from top layer to the bottom - allowing these bacteria to exist and utilize whatever "fuel" source is present. You want nitrification and denitrification - simple as that. The levels of O2 must decrease as you move to the lower portions of the sandbed. Gotta.
The amount of organic material in the sandbed in addition to these areas of zero O2 - may increase the chance of hydrogen sulfide gas production. The key word is "may"
I don't know one person that has had a problem with hydrogen sulfide - although that really doesn't mean squat either.
4) Sweet bit of info josh ! Thanks !
5) My parents would also obliterate a saltwater tank - love'm to pieces, but they have a tough time using the ATM machine.
Good post Tellico Tornado

 

[iswimwithmyfish]

blj1234 what do u mean that quote
FRESHWATER IS ALOT CHEAPER THAN FRESHWATER!!!
<img src="graemlins//confused.gif" border="0" alt="[confused]" />

 

[kris walker]

I'm sure he means freshwater is cheaper than saltwater.
To add to this topic, I'd just like to point out that some freshwater environments have very high pH. A perfect example are African rift lakes. These are the homes of the African cichlids, and the pH in these places range from 7.8-8.8 (the actual range depends on which lake you are referring to). So if you are into African cichlids (they are really cool to breed, and can be very beautiful), then I would go with an arragonite DSB. If you want a low pH FW tank like one for the South or Central America river environments, I would not worry about a DSB, but silica sand would still look natural. In this case, I would use lots of different types of macroalgae in the main tank for decoration and "denitrification".
Cheers,
sam

 

[coraltrapper5020]

I use a 2 inchs of cal sand in my african tanks, and have lots of trumpit snails, Lots. They mix the sand as the eat every thing that is not ate by the fish. I tried this same aproch in salt water but my tanks keep getting brown slim algea.
But I know is works in fresh, Trying a deeper sand bed in my reef now hopping to get ride of the brown stuff.

 

[josh]

Luke:
I didn't want to come off as saying you were totally wrong about the anaerobic deal. Yes there are types of anarobes that are called facultative. I am not sure of the biochem of that however, I would guess that they have a different carrier protein that can bond to either oxygen or nitrate, but like I said I am an industrial chemist and not a mirobiologist/biochemist. The reason I posted like I did, is that in the anaerobic zone of the DSB there is no O2 so all the facultative anaeorobes or acting the same way as the obligative anaerobes ( bonding the spent electrons the nitrate). So I guess you and Wamp were right, just in different senses. OK
-Josh-

 

[wamp]

Josh,
If nitrates are broken down into free nitrogen and nitrogen can cause a low PH how does a tank with a DSB maintain PH? Or does nitrogen even cause a low PH? I read that in a phamplet the other day and questioned the point and can find no info on Free nitrogen in the tank. I know C02 supresses ph but nitrogen?
Hope you or someone can answer this one for me.

 

[wally]

One thing to consider with Fresh Water tanks is that live plants will also be more than happy to use any excess nitrates that you may have. There are a ton of live plants that grow really well without a lot of special needs. Anacharis is a very good choice and can just be left "floating" on top.
I have been into freshwater tanks for a very long time. In fact back in the 60's and 70's sand was the #1 subsrate of choice. You could go into any fish store and buy it very cheap in any color of the rainbow. The difference was back then we were told that you only wanted an inch or less. Then the UGF began to replace boxfilters and people made the switch over to gravel. Now that powerfilters are the norm a switch back to sand is a good idea I think for fresh water.

 

[luke]

Wamp, I don't beleive that nitrogen causes a change in pH (although I am not certain). If it did cause low pH then it would act just like CO2 and disolve the sand adding elements back to the water.
Josh - I did not mean to come off as arguing with you I am just saying that from the reading I have done (see quotes above), that it appears to me that anaerobic bacteria do not need zero O2. And if they are provided with it other chemicals can become problems. Frankly I don't know if hydrogen sulfide is as a result of anaerobic bacteria, or as a result of zero O2, although I would assume the former.
Luke

 

[misty]

Just a "common sense" note to add to all of the techical discussion:
Sand as the bottom layer of a FW tank will be a real pain to clean. I still have a FW tank (started just before my SW tank) and the way I clean it is so much different than the way I maintain my SW tank. Remember, with most SW tanks, you have a clean-up crew that takes care of the detrius by turning the sand, etc. In a FW tank, there isn't really anything that turns the sand or could eat all of the fish poop (usually more fish in a FW tank)! So you have to "vacuum" the gravel with a siphon every three weeks or so. I can't imagine having to do that with sand.
There is a very fine gravel available that looks very natural (like river bed gravel). The grains are about the size of Grape Nuts (yes, the cereal...it was all I could think of). The siphon cleans it very well.
Good luck with the new tank.

 

[luke]

Misty- that is how this whole discussion got started
Deep sand (or in the case of FW substrate) beds can't really be disturbed. They do however need the creatures to clean them (just like you said). I guess my point is that it would not be cleaned (just as in SW).
As a side note to everyone interested in the subject of FW DSB; there are creatures out there that do this for the FW areas, they are just not in demand (yet). The more I think about the origanol question (Sorry Tellico Tornado for getting way off subject ) the more I think that it could easily work! You would need a subsrate that is comprised of some nuturel substance, one that if it disolved into the water (it will) it would not add hardness or alter pH. As someone mentioned, sand (aragonite), may work with Cichlids.
I think that it would be well worth a try.
Luke

 

[coraltrapper5020]

Trumpit snails live in the sand and stur it better than and live sand kit I have ever used.