Dropping like flies

[usafyyc]

I read through the Diseased Fish thread that Beth put up ( incredibly helpful!) However I still can't seem to pinpoint what has caused a string of deaths in my wife and I's tank.
Stats:
55 gal, two "back-pack" filters, 4 18 inch bulbs (2 normal white lights, 2 Actinic blues), 40lbs worth of crushed coal for the floor (gives us about an inch thick), 26lbs of live rock split into three rocks (no where NEAR enough I know).
Levels:
Salinity: 1.022- 1.023, pH: 8.0, Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate took a heavy spike up to 80 last week and then fell within 3 days to 40. To treat the Nitrate I was told to cut the algae by reducing light hours to less than 10 (Honestly I think that did my tang in), and then we were told to use Seagel in the filters to help clean things up even more.
Life:
Small anemone, 20 crabs, 2 peppermint shrimp, 2 fire shrimp, and a cleaner shrimp. We have a dwarf fuzzy lionfish, 4 Blacktail Damsels, 2 "Blue Damsels", False Percula Clown, 1 small yellow sponge, 1 piece of coral that looks like a red twig (I'm sorry I don't know names)
Diet: Really rather basic. Flake Frenzy 3-4 times a day for the most of them. And a cube of frozen brineshrimp for the lion and anemone every 3-4 days. Naturally everyone else gets to take part in the shrimp thing but I try to target those two.
Obituaries:
One red starfish COD: unknown rapidly began deteriorating and looked like he was being eaten. Rushed to QT but died during the night.
Clown... COD: Unknown. Started acting funny (ie. being very still near each of the four corners of the tank, wouldn't swim much even for food, slightly labored breathing) We were told it was because "it" was becoming a SHE and this isn't a comfortable experience (I can only imagine lol) and we should just let it be. Ok fine. 2 days later (even with positive progression) I come home and the shrimp were eating it. At the time it had also started turning to a darker color on the upper half.
Latest and most odd. Baby yellow tang. From first intro to tank extremely friendly with everyone. Ate regularly was doing great. One night we noticed he just stopped moving, went to a corner and just sat there. Breathing looked fine, eyes looked normal. But he was paper thin. First instinct... give him some food. No reaction. Chased him around for a second to get him to move around a little bit and notice the food then it was right back to the corner. Died with-in 4 hours
All of these took place very near each other, but never overlapping. As I've read earlier in the board the tang really had no place in our tank anyways for limits in size. (So I'm thinking that we won't be replacing him) With the rocks we have all the fish seem to have their own little place to hide and get away from others. The tang when we got him home looked to have suffered a trauma to his eye... but that cleared up to a little dot with-in a day of being in our tank. I just don't know what is killing them off. If it's chems it's not picking it up on our test kit (Saltwater Master Liquid Test Kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals). currently I can only test for those 5 items I listed above. If there is a test kit that is more comprehensive that might aid us in keeping out pets alive I'd love to find out about it. Any ideas as to the whys and where to go from here? I'm going to keep scanning through your treads but I haven't seen something like this yet.
Jason

 

[cprdnick]

I'm sorry to hear about your losses, I'll try to help the best I can, even if it is to give others an idea of what might be going on.
How long have you had each of these inhabitants?
How long has the tank been up?
What size filters are your "back pack" filters?
Is there any other form of filtration besides the "back packs", and rock?
Do you have an air supply?
Did you QT the Tang before adding it to your display?
Does your Anemone look healthy?
Have you used any Copper based medication in that tank, ever?
I would probably cut down on your amount of feeding to 1-2 times per day as 3-4 seems a little much to me, but I only feed once every day cutting my quantity down by half every other day. I have personally also been using the Aquarium Pharmecuticals test kit and I'm not convinced in its performance. My ammonia readings were horribly wrong during my cycle and it cost me another month in my cycle. It also shows an ammonia reading everytime I test, but two different LFS's using Salifert read 0. I've talked to many other owners of the same kit that have had that problem with their test kits.
My two biggest theories would be the "injury" to the tang before you got it. If it was not QT'd before introduction the little bump could have been a sign towards disease.
Over feeding, like I hinted earlier I'm not sure if that's considered over feeding, but to me it is.
Also you may look to another primary source for your information other than where you had been getting it in the past. Alot, not all, LFS's employ uneducated personel, or they are out to make a buck regardless of the lives they are responsible for. Remember that settling for one person's opinion on maintenance or care information can be a big gamble.
I hope things get cleared up, good luck.

 

[usafyyc]

Thanks for the reply. Surfing through the threads at this site has REALLY opened my eyes to a lot of things I'd never have thought of.
Filters: We have two scruber pads in each filter they'er like 6X6 inch squares. As to air, no, we only have what the filters pump in as the water cycles back into the tank.
We did not QT our Tang before we put him in. Our store just told us to float him (all) for 15mins for temp. Add half a cup from tank. 15 mins add more, 15 mins release.
Anemone looks great. Eating well, doesn't sit still very long. Each day it cruises to some different part of the tank.
As to how long we've had them all, no more than a month. Our set up looked like this.
Bought tank and crushed coral. Set it up in one night and left it to filter for three days. Levels looked good so we added 2 pieces of LR (total 16 lbs) waited about 4 days added damsels (4 Black tails). Damsels to this day look fine. Waited about 5 days and we added Lion, Tang, 2 Clowns. Waited about a week added 2 Blue Damsels, Starfish, and Anemone. Last week I added 20 crabs on two different days, the shrimp, the last large rock, sponge and coral. And again after reading on this site... That set up looks WAY too fast. :scared:
And with regards to meds and copper... I don't belive we added anything that might be killing them off. We do use balance blocks and they contain trace ammounts of 71 different minerals to include copper and carbon. Could that be our killers?
If I need to do a mass QT and let the tank just sit for now, how big would it need to be for a dwarf lion, 6 damsels and a clown? (All juvies)

 

[usafyyc]

Lost the Lion, anemone looks either dead or utilizing the latrine. Clown has now begun to act like the last one did. Damsels still happy as can be. I just don't get it. NM has a really high floride level could that do it? If so wouldn't there have been signs of distress when they were first introduced? I'm honestly thinking about scraping this tank to restart it. I just hope the others can pull through till I can get a large enough QT. What should I do about my inverts? Who all seem to be doing just fine?

 

[cprdnick]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!
I would post a short version of this story in the New Hobbyist forum, more people look in that forum everyday than any other and you may get some good advice.
To me it looks like you have started a massive cycle by adding too many too quick. Also earlier in the thread you mentioned high nitrate levels, I would pose my theory toward the crushed coral substrate.
Did you use tap water? RO water shouldn't have flouride in it.
In your new thread you need to state all deaths, times between each death, add the parts about addding the tang without QT and the bump on his eye. Tell your startup process, and have your LFS run tests on all of your water and post it with your thread.
I would do it like this if you decide to start over:
1. Mix your SW to 1.021-1.025 SG with RO/DI water, if you don't have anything in your tank at all you can just mix this in the tank. Get your water temp up to par.
2. Add half sand if you're willing to add the expense and trash the CC.
3. Aquire atleast half of your LR before starting a cyle, add in the bottom pieces of LR and then pour the other half of sand in, making sure that some of the rock is partially buried, this will provide stability in your aquascape, though not necessary all of the time. Let your sand settle and then add the rest of your rock. If you choose to add more rock later, do it slowly or you could start another cycle.
4. You now have your saltwater, and your biological filtration (some of it). Get your filtration in order. You need to have atleast 10 times the turnover in your tank, in a 55 gallon this would be 550 GPH total minimum. Dont get just one form of flow that will be 550GPH, get atleast two forms of flow to create turbulence in the water column.
5. Now you kick start your cycle. I would personally like to steer you against using live fish to start this cycle since it tends to kill off the poor guys, regardless of how cheap they are they're still living creatures. Besides, why risk their lives when you can do it another way cheaper. Go to your local grocery store to the seafood section. Ask them for ONE cocktail shrimp, the bigger the better IMHO.
Now you can do this several ways, some people just throw it in and let it rot for a few days, but I prefer to use a sterilized water bottle or peanut butter jar with a bunch of holes drilled in it. I shove the shrimp inside and either just let it float or add some sand to it to hold it down. What this decomposing piece of shrimp is doing is breaking down into waste with creates ammonia in the tank. This ammonia will jump start the cycle, once you have a substantial ammonia test result, remove the shrimp. This is where my water bottle comes in, now this shrimp has been decomposing it's not all going to come out in one piece if you just threw it in and let it land somewhere. this water bottle has allowed it to breakdown and decompose within a freeflow container allowing you to remove it without having to chase the pieces around.
6. Watch your parameters. Keep watching Ammonia, that is the only one you need to test for at the moment. Once ammonia zeros out, start watching the nitrites, once they zero out, check your nitrates and pH. If your Nitrates are good and your pH is balanced out, you can now let your tank age. I would recommend letting it settle down for about 2 weeks and then doing a 20-25% water change before adding anything, even a cleanup crew. while you're in this aging process you still need to feed the bacteria responsible for erradicating the ammonia and nitrites in the first place. Just sprinkle some flake in to the tank every other day or so, just enough to give the tank some small decomposing matter.
You should now be ready for your cleanup crew, a week later you should be ready to add your 2 damsels, let all of this sit for another 2 weeks before you decide to add anything else. I would hold off on the anemone, give the tank some time to mature first.
Also, while you are waiting for your tank to cycle, you'll have time to work on your filtration. You don't necessarily need mechanical filters. As long as youhave good flow over your rocks you will have biological filtration. In this time you may also want to consider purchasing a quality protien skimmer, it will make your SW hobby more enjoyable in the long run I promise.
I hope I have been some help to you, good luck on finding your answers and happy reefing.
Clint

 

[usafyyc]

Thank you so much for the help with a new set up. To my relife the anemone was just digesting. Today it's back at it rolling around the floor like usual.
I'll try to edit my original message and post it in the beginers area like you said. No one at the LFS told us what we needed to look for while setting up so we kinda just threw things in like we thought they needed to be and waited. As to your comments about not adding them so quickly and risking their lives... I totally agree. I'd rather have a big bucket of saltwater and rocks than a bunch of lost lives on my hands. I really wish I'd seen this site before we got started.
Quick ich question. Will it affect invertibrates? I've seen it recomended to get your fish into hypo but what do you do for the shrimp and crabs?
Jason

 

[cprdnick]

As far as I know inverts can't get it, it purely a fish disease, not totally sure about that statement, but that's what I think.
Don't worry too much, everyone makes mistakes. I went through two clowns and a Hippo Tang before I found this site. It's all about research, if you aren't sure about the research you've done research more. It's never ending. Don't get discouraged, once you start to click with your tank, it'll run like clockwork and you'll wonder how you ever did the things you did before you knew.
Also, if the LFS bothers to give you any information, check it with another source that doesn't have the financial gain in mind. I told my LFS guy to "blankity blank off and to shove it" right in front of one of his higher paying customers (a doctor) because he kept telling the guy that his NO lights would be fine for SPS and Clams, and naturally I had to butt in.

 

[ssweet1]

The blockers have copper in it which is poison for corals but not fish, I still wouldnt add stuff without being able to check for example too much iodine is not a good thing and the iodine test kits wont detect the free iodine levels.Have you checked for phosphates? I have also heard that if your house is closed up 24/7 that the gas exchange rate isnt good and that if you let some fresh air in it could help, I know this is reaching but hey I would try anything at this point. Good Luck, Carrie

 

[beth]

How long have you had your tank set up? That diet is really pretty bad. No fish will live long on that diet. Try using a variety of frozen foods, or even going with a fresh seafood mix similiar to the one I posted in the FAQ.