DSB negatives

[jlem]

My opinion on DSB.
1- If it is your only means of biological filtration then 4-6 inches is great.
2- Live rock converts nitrate to nitrogen as well as a DSB and doesn't take up 4-6 inches of the bottum of your tank
3- After awhile Dsb look pretty ugly the bottum 3-5 inches against the glass.
4- pods and critters will thrive in a 1-2 inch SB just fine
5- moving a DSB has wiped out plenty of tanks once reestablished.
6- plenty of live rock and a 1-2 inch sand bed will work as well as a 4-6 inch DSB.
7-this is only my opinion, but after one and a half years with live rock and my current SB I have never had a nitrate problem what so ever.

 

[lurch694u]

That was good info! I don't know why people are jumping on this DSB band wagon. I think a deep sand bed is a waste of money. Plus you'll get ugly black dead spots in the sand. I have a 1 inch sand bed and it is thriving with life. Plus I never had a nitrate problem...

 

[adrian]

As long as were posting opinions, heres mine I am of the school that there are several ways to keep a healthy reef, but I must say I think creating DSBs in my tanks is one of the best things I have ever done, for the following reasons I love the look of the sand against the glass, I find all that cyanobacteria, worms, and other little creatures quite interesting, I have never noticed any "black spots" in any of my DSBs, by black spots are you referring to hydrogen sulfide? If so hydrogen sulfide is the result of rotting organics in a stagnant state, if you see this in a dsb in large amounts then your sand bed is not completely live. I also know that complete denitrification can only take place if there are anerobic zones present, which only exist in the deepest pores of live rock, therefore live rock cannot provide near as much surface area for anearobic bacteria to colonate as a properly constucted DSB, I also ran a tank with no nitrate problems without a DSB, but I cant say the nitrate ever read 0, as they have in my 75 for a year and a half now, by the way how would you define a nitrate problem, would it be that nitrates are present in the system, or that they are elevated to dagerous levels such as 100ppm? Never heard of a tank with a DSB being wiped out due to relocation, I have broken down quite a few tanks with DSBs, including 3 of my own. Again I think there are several ways to keep a healthy reef, but this is my opinion after 6 years in the hobby

 

[byrself]

i agree with both sides to a point. i think it does matter what all you are keeping in the tank, and other factors as well. i currently don't have a dsb, but i'm planning on setting up my next tank with a dsb. or at least run a dsb in my sump, with just generous amounts in the main tank. everyone's opinions will be different. i say, go with what you know, or what you feel comfortable with. jmo.
also, i was thinking of building up my sand bed in the 20 to a dsb, but am weary of disturbing the stability i've achieved already. i do think though that starting off with a dsb is a good way to go. but not necessary. you gotta at least have quality live rock though imo. i do like the idea that the substrate can remain in the tank, even if you moved it. to preserve whatever bacteria you have already established in it.

 

[rick58]

If your willing to put the work into it, you can make anything work. When you make statements like Live Rock coverts Nitrates as good as live sand it would be nice to support it with some kind of foundation to help new folks like me judge. In this case I believe the science clearly supports Adrian - atleast the articles I've read - so I'm curious how you came to your opinion. This is also true about the sand life - it is my understanding that it is important to have a very diverse yet sustainable pod population to 'work' the sand. Since predation and other attrition does take place at this level a larger volume bed helps provide stability here (in addition to the anaerobic zones). Theoretically, the larger the bed the fewer times you will need to supplement your pod population. Again, I believe the science clearly supports Adrian and am curious how you came to your opinion here as well.

 

[jlem]

Rick 58, I came to my conclution from my book on reef keeping at home, and from personnel expierience. The reason why a DSB is so deep is to provide the low oxygen zones right. So a 6 inch DSB is only using maybe 2-3 inches for nitrate convertion. Seems like a waste of 3 inches of sand when live rock can do the same thing. I know that it doesn't take three inches of live rock before it starts converting nitrate. I am not saying that a DSB is a terrible thing. I just am saying that I think that more live rock will look better, and acomplish the same thing than 6 inches of live sand. As far as the pods. A shallow sand bed does not need to be turned over near as much as a shallow SB, also pods colonize live rock as well as live sand. Less sand won't effect your pod population that much since the added live rock will support critters to. This is only my opinion that I am entitled to.
For Adrian. If the nitrate is causing a problem then it's a problem. I personally show zero nitrates in my tank. If you do a search you will find plenty of threads where people have wiped out tanks after moving a DSB from one location to another. Your tank is very lucky to have no dark ( not black, but dark ) spots against the glass. Very few people are as lucky.

 

[bluemarlin]

It seems that this hobby has as many different opinions as any other. This is not bad. Many people do things differently every day and we all seem to survive.
I currently have a 1.5" bed of sand and at least 150# of LR in my 180 tank. I have a 55 gallon sump that still has bioballs(I'm still not convinced I should remove them) and media in it along with a skimmer. I do register about 20ppm Nitrates but nitrites and ammonia are 0ppm. Everything is doing just fine. I am not against change as I see it as something that is inevitable, however, I am against change simply for the sake of change. (How else would Bill Clinton have been elected in the first place?)
If it ain't broke don't fix it!

 

[jlem]

Is this the same BlueMarlin over on the other site. If it is then your post is why I posted this post. I still think that your bioballs are not neede because of your live rock. I had biowheels which are the same concept as bioballs on my tank for a year before I took them off. I saw no uprise in ammonia. Granted I had lots of well established live rock. Like you said, or was it me J/K (If it ain't broke, why fix it)

 

[fshhub]

hmmmm
i am with adrian here
i have dsb,a dn moved it, no problems, as well at work we have one and moved it, and again, problems, but even with lr when moving, you need to plan, b/c disrupting it can cause garbage to get sirred up which could cause a apike
lr does not do quite as good of a job as a dsb(you need much more lr)
yes it can be successful without one
and the ugliness as you call it can be taken care of easily, mine has beautiful colors of algaes, which i dhoose not to hid, but a stand, where the tank sits inside the trim is easy enough to get

 

[jlem]

I said that live rock will do as good as a job as A DSB, and Fshhub says it is th other way around. Well what are we comparing here. Volume of rock and sand, or weight of rock and sand, and what grain size or rock density. I realize that their is so many factors that we both are right. my system has more rock than sand with zero nitrates. Fshhub may have more sand than rock with zero nitrates. I'm not going to say you are wrong and I am right, or vice versa. Can we agree to disagree.

 

[bluemarlin]

jlem,
Yes, I am pleased to say that I am both BlueMarlin's. (And you thought that one was enough)
You and I think alike it seems but we are in the minority here. For now, I am not planning any changes but I am keeping an open mind and open eyes. People around here are very smart and very helpful! Heck I've got 28 years in this hobby and I'm still learning.

 

[dinhouse]

What it all boils down to is: "IT'S YOUR TASNK AND IT'S YOUR CHOICE!"

 

[kelly]

I had a 80 gal. tank up for over 8 years with an undergravel filter, and about 1-2" of crushed coral. The last 2 years I quit cleaning the CC, and the nitrates were less than 20. (When I was cleaning the gravel monthly, they were around zero.) I switched it over to a DSB last month.
I ran a cheap skimmer powered by an air pump, and did water 5 gallon water changes every other week. A DSB is not necessary, but it really can help. Two of my 3 tanks now have a DSB, only then nano does not, the sand bed there is about 2".
With a little common sense, you can have good results. Do not over feed, do not vacuum a dsb, remove excess detrius, have a good clean up crew, do not over stock, do water changes, skim, and keep the temperature correct. These things in addition to good water flow and the correct lighting and the "obvious" will help you keep your tank(s) running well for years to come. I started with seahorses over 33 years ago, and have been fascinated with the hobby ever since.

 

[jlem]

If MJB shows up watch out. HE"S sick sick sick. He eats yellow tangs alive and marches in anti reef marches. He runs a sweat shop where poor little blennies make shoes all day long. JUST JOKING. Seems like a good reefer to me and hope he shows up for some more good inputs.

 

[frankl15207]

Hey Kelly
I didn't know anyone else in W. PA was dumb enough to get into saltwater back in the late 60s! Nice little college you have up there. My nephew and his wife both graduated from it in 1996.
Following along with the same advice you gave, my challenge when going into reefs wasn't keeping nitrates below 20, it was getting them near zero. In fish only systems, my nitrates never went above 15 because I followed a vigorous maintainance schedule which included regular water changes and filter maintainance.
However jlem, live rock isn't sufficient to eliminate nitrates. It helps, but won't eliminate them. I started without a DSB for other reasons, but am slowly adding live sand to build it up.
My nitrates were reduced from 8-12 to undetectable with the addition of a refugium and weekly religious 10% water changes (I'm one of those idiots that don't believe that fish should be forced to live for a year in the same water that they urinate in).
Opinions in this hobby have changed over the years. The first time that I looked into setting up a reef tank, they were still promoting the use of undergravel filters along with the addition of trickle filters and protein skimmers. Then someone disconnected their undergravel filter and the plenum was born.
Back then, there were a lot fewer people in the hobby, and as the numbers grew, so did the success of the methods used. There are now proven methods for properly maintaining the balance needed to keep corals alive and healthy. Some still promote the use of a plenum because they have never had a problem with them.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is a good philosophy, but if you can build on that and add more stability to it, you avoid the problems that can happen if one little thing goes wrong.

 

[jlem]

Frank. Can you tell me what is keeping my nitrates at zero. I doubt that it is my canister filter, and I doubt that my 1-2 inches of sand is doing much. No one said anyone was wrong until you put in your opinion, which of course is welcome and appreciated. Please don't turn this into another your wrong and I'm right thread. You didn't start a DSB for your reasons. I didn't start a DSB because of my reasons. Both are okay, but please don't tell me that live rock won't eliminate nitrates and that is the only awnser. It may not in your tank but it definatle does in mine.
Please somebody shoot me, I sound like a shark J/K

 

[frankl15207]

Sorry jlem, that wasn't my intention. Rereading my post, that is what I indicated. What I wanted to stress was the additional benefit, not right or wrong.
When I set this up, I looked into plenums and backed off because of the problem that may occur with power failures. We have them often around here for no reasons.
Again, I have not had a problem with nitrate control because of religious maintainance. I am building up a deep sand bed now as an insurance policy against something going wrong that could alter that schedule.
This is why I decided to add one:
<a href="http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm" target="_blank">http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm</a>

 

[bluemarlin]

I'm just dying for this conversation to jump into the "no" substrate. Does anyone remember when the best idea was to leave the bottom of the tank empty? That didn't last long.
The bottom line here is to keep numbers in line so that the inhabitants of the tank thrive. It can be done many ways because here we are as proof. Very few of us do everything exactly the same yet we all have what appear to be successful setups.

 

[jlem]

None offense taken. I will admit that the only reasons why I didn't start a DSB from the start is that the sand that was given to me only covered 1-2 inches of my tank so I said what the heck it looks nice. I didn't find this site until 9 months after the samd was in, and didn't change because like the thread reads, I think that there are more negatives than positves. My tank was showing no nitrates at all. If I was a new reefer then I probably would start a DSB because of all of the well merited hype. I started this thread to make poeple think before they start a DSB just becsuse that was the only option on the boards and good as they are, I don't think they are the right option for everyone.

 

[jlem]

Since Marlin brought it up. I had my 90 gallon up for about 2 months and everything was good. Had crushed coral, a few corals and lots of fish( all those fish will be fine said the evil lfs). I buy some rock from somebody. 240 lbs for 80 bucks. Put half of the rock into my tank and sell the other half. Never was told that the rock would have to recure after 24 hours out of a tank. Leave for 6 weeks to LAOS. Come back and Hair algae out the yin yang and everything is dead except my tomato clown who is still kickin today. Was told that the CC was the culprit and to run no substrate at all. Well needless to say it didn't do anything and required more cleaning than the CC. Scratched the no substrate idea about 2 months later. That was about the time that I started over from scratch with the sand and have had no complaints since.
Golfish. Does your sand bed look white the whole way down. If it does cool. How long in between moves. If along time cool. I am talking about moving a 2+ year old established DSB where all the layers get mixed up and put back in. I am not saying that the sandbed will fry the tank but there is the posability.
Their is a thread called to bioball or not to bioball in this same forum. Broomer5 brings up a great point. Regardless of how much surface area you have for bacteria to colonize. You will only produce the amount of bacteria in proportion to the bioload. if you aren't producing enough nitrates to overwork your live rock then a DSB is not needed.