DSB with Semi-aggressive

[craig110768]

I have a semi-aggressive tank, with high nitrates. I have started to change large amount of water to get them down.
Is it a good idea to have a DSB in a semi-aggressive tank such as mine?
Would that make cleaning more difficult later down the road?
What else would keep the nitrates down? Just a protein skimmer?
Any comments

 

[treble]

First no more fishys. A good skimmer is a must. A DSB would be optimal. Keep feeding to a minimal...

 

[craig110768]

What would you recommend for a DSB as far as depth, considering the fish I have in there?
Should I put some live sand in there, or would that cause a spike?
Any suggestions.

 

[rane]

Craig110768,
I also had problems with my nitrates and amonia when i first started my tank...after I got my fluidized bed filter it all went away...call it coincidence or whatever but so far i havent had any spikes and my water quality is perfect even with the messy eaters i have

 

[beth]

The point to having a DSB is to eliminate most of the mechanical filtration [except for skimmer] that are associated with standard aquaria. DSB's consist of more than just sand.
You need more LR. You should have around 155-lbs of LR. LR and DSB go hand in hand as the LR is a major source for DSB infuana. If you get the additional LR and establish a 5-6" DSB, then you should be able to get those nitrates down.
The DSB should consist of a variety of sand particle sizes ranging from .02-1.7. It is best to establish the DSB and LR fauna BEFORE introducing fish, but, you've already intro-ed the fish. I am not that familiar with the eating habits of puffers, but I do know that they will pick off snails, etc. DSB is a system that is designed more for reef setups or peaceful community tanks...which is why you probably won’t get too much info on DSB here in the Aggressive Forum. Hopefully your fish are not worm predators. Worms [mostly bristleworms because they are readily available coming from the LR] are an essential component to the DSB. Find out what your aggressive fish eat and see if that contradicts what you need for a DSB. [Think of a DSB as an ecosystem, not just sand.] Contrary to what most believe, crabs and snails are not really the mainstay of the DSB. Organisms that live within the sand are.
Additionally, your wet/dry system is probably causing some of your nitrate problems. What type skimmer do you have?
You have a few conflicts here with the type of tank you’ve chosen to set up as well as the filtrations you are using. Find out what the predatory/eating habits of your fish are, then see if you can accommodate that within the setup you have chosen. If a DSB is not going to be appropriate, it is not too late to re-think your setup. You have few fish and not that much LR, so, if you have to make a tough decision to change your system a bit, better to do it now than when you’ve invested more time and money on a inappropriate system. You could setup a separate DSB support system below your tank---if the DSB is not going to work within your tank.
For now, research your fish habits and see if you can accommodate them within your current system before moving on with what you have set up. Think about an alternative or modification to the wet/dry.
Read this article to get a clear understanding of the DSB system:
<a href="http://rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm" target="_blank">DSB</a>

 

[craig110768]

I think the only fish in the tank that would be a problem for snails is the puffer.
Is there anybody out there with similar fish with a DSB?
Maybe I need to get rid of spike - I'd rather not!

 

[craig110768]

"You could setup a separate DSB support system below your tank---if the DSB is not going to work within your tank"
Please explain, beth.

 

[seaguru]

Beth... thanks for the link to the DSB article, 'tis a wonderful wealth of information!
Anthem I had a question for you regarding mangroves in a large refugium (I have a 60g). Would you know how to get the mangroves to grow multiple stems as I have not been able to. They say to not pinch off all the leaves so I have not, but my mangroves seem to just grow straight up on one stem... Am still learning about DSB, 24-hour light-on period, macroalgaes going sexual, etc. Thanks for any info you can give. Joe.

 

[craig110768]

Thanks Anthem.
I have a mexican saddle-back wrassse in my QT at the moment.
I was also wanting an Angel fish along a blue tang at some point, once my tank is back in order.
If I got rid of my Puffer. Would ALL the fish I currently have in the tank, including the ones I want, be compatiable with a DSB with snails and the rest of the stuff.
Maybe I should just take him back if he's the only fish restricting me. You mention that DSB is the way to go, along with some LR and LS, but this puffer would prevent this. How do other people get there nitrates down in an aggressive tank - just a very good protein skimmer I guess.
Whats your thoughts?

 

[beth]

Again, take a cold, hard look at your wet-dry...they are known to create nitrate problems in aquaria.
Wrasses are DSB disrupters [this is beginning to sound like a shoot-'em up video game... ], which you do not want in a DSB. They disturb the sandbed so much with their digging, that they wreck havoc on the DSB ecosystem. Disturbing the sandbed by any organism other than animals that live in sand, is unacceptable with a DSB. However, if you give up the puffer, the wrasse, and, then probably the Wet/Dry too, and add LR, you can make this work very well.
If you are determined to continue with the DSB, then find a new home for these 2 fish. Make your next purchases LR, not fish. Add at least 155lbs. Once the LR and DSB are off and running, pull the Wet/Dry if you are still having unacceptable nitrates.
Just keep in mind that any fish that preys upon sandbed creatures, or disturbs the sand in any way are not DSB compatible. If you follow this rule, then you will be ok as far as your DSB is concerned.

 

[craig110768]

Hi Beth, Anthem
OK, So aggressive fish like my Puffer and Wrasse are not compatible with DSB. Just thinking about cost now.
I'm now on the understanding that if i add anymore fish to my tank, I will just compound the problem until I make a decision.
If I don't go with a DSB, what else can I use to keep the nitrate down - many water changes to just to dilute them. You mentioned the protein skimmer won't help in that respect.
So basically my Wet-Dry is good at converting the ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate but nothing more. Is that correct. sorry - i'm now to this.
I just making sure before I do anything.
any other comments
Craig

 

[craig110768]

Thanks anthem, beth.
You have been a great help.
Adding a bag of live sand over time, and not going full into a DSB should help with the nitates though. I'm sure that there are a lot of organisms that live within the sand, that a puffer or wrasse cannot see that would help reduce down the nitrates. I'm I completely wrong here? Please tell me!!!
Yes. I am understanding that the puffer and wrasse will digg into the sand and eat snails and the like, but maybe there are other beneficial organisms that may stick around.
I feel that, yes going with a DSB would be the best thing, but currently, I have reduced down the feeding for the puffer considerably, and I'll see how that helps.
I'm thinking of adding some LS this weekend, and then see how things pan out over the next few weeks. If it keeps compounding then I will take back the wrasse and puffer, like you suggested.
I just don't wont to make any rash decisions before trying a few things first.
Do you have any comments regarding this.

 

[beth]

Yes, the 2 fish vs the setup you currently have.
Now, if your heart is set on an aggressive setup, then that's the way to go. DSB's are reef oriented, though you can certainly have a "tame" FOWLR.
I know a lot of hobbyists and sources say feed less, but, it has been my exp so far with dsb, to FEED it. The more you feed, the more there is for the infauna to clean up...the more food, the more reproduction of infauna, the more infauna, the better your DSB! If LR and LS is going to be your filter, then you must cultivate the organisms that live within the rock and sand--and believe me, there are a lot more of those than there ever will be of fish...and they like to eat. You will be hard pressed to overfeed these creatures once they are thriving.
Also, macro algae IN THE TANK will eat your nitrates up. I don’t know if you got any macros on the live rock you purchased, or what type of LR you have, but you should encourage macros that have been imported via LR or acquire macros for your DSB tank. Not to plug SWF.com but I got great macros from their LR [as well as great seeding for the DSB]. And, your tangs will love the macros!

 

[beth]

If you want any kind of functional DSB, then the wrasse must go.

 

[beth]

It might help to understand if you think of the sandbed as a ecosystem in and of itself that provides the primary filtration for your aquaria. It, just as much as your fish, must be fed and appropriately cared for---after all, there are millions of organisms in the sandbed---as compared to the fish you have placed in your tank. This is a symbiotic relationship between DSB and the desired organisms that you place in your tank.
The DSB’s food sources are the waste byproducts of your fish & other animals. The animals that you desire to place in your tank [like fish] produce food for the animals in your tank that you will never see [infauna bacteria & microalgae], and the animals that many hobbyists [mistakenly] want to rid themselves of [like worms].
The breakdown of these byproducts in to nitrogen gas occurs in the lower regions of the DSB were anaerobic zones [low oxygen] exists. Bacteria growing on the surface of each grain of sand [within the DSB including these low oxygen zones] is the &#8220;export&#8221; mechanism which facilitates this process. Thus, you see the importance of cultivating and, if you will, protecting this bacteria. Bacteria in the DSB must not have competition for either space or food, else you diminish the DSB as a filter mechanism. Competition for food & space occurs with sand disturbing organisms such as gobies&#8212;that eat the sandbed infauna as well as continually disturbs the bed with their tunneling [as well as swallowing and spitting out the sand resulting in wiping out the bacteria population on sand grains] resulting in DSB bacteria mortality. You can see why I said, &#8220;NO WRASSE&#8221; in the DSB. The sandbed must not be infiltrated except by infauna organisms that will work in harmony with the sandbed bacteria, slowly and gently overturning the bed so that the population of sandbed bacteria and microalgae grows, thrives and become diverse. If the sandbed ecosystem is constantly being disrupted or preyed upon by other organisms, then the DSB is, at best, not working optimally, and, at worse, dysfunctional.

 

[craig110768]

Hi Beth, Anthem
Thanks again. I have a better understanding of this DSB now. You guys have been a great help.
If I get rid of the 2 fish can I use part coral sand and live sand together, to reduce down the cost?
You mention I need around about 6 inches in depth - that can quite costly.
Can I start adding LS while i have the tang and fox-face still in there - if i'm real careful!

 

[beth]

You can not use crushed coral. You can use dry sand, however, which costs about the same as crushed coral anyway...Do not be tempted to use crushed coral. DSB means: deep sand bed---not sand mixed with crushed coral.
The only problem you have with adding sand after the fact is that it will get all over everything in your tank, and it will also suspend in the water for a time. You should try to get the DSB done before additing fish, at least. I don't think breathing suspended sand particles is good for fish. If you add sand later, use a PVC pipe with a funnel at the top to direct the sand directly to the sandbed and slowly add the sand. Unless you are going to take the LR out when you add the sand, getting an even distribution of sand is going to be near impossible, though.