eel,angler,lion

[chris0796]

could all of these species co-exist in a 75 gallon if so could some of you guys give me some reccomendations as on what species i should go for i want a lion that will max out at about 5-6 inches and an angler at about 4-5 and i think i want a snowflake eel as i had one in the past and these would be the only occupants of the tank along with a lot of caves and rockwork

 

[psusocr1]

75 is small but you can do a snowflake,, as for as lions iw ould get a dwarf thats the only thing small enough for a 75.. anglers will eat anythign and you should have them in a species only tank, but hopefully someone else could chime in on the angler situation

 

[v-lioness]

Anglers and Lions are predators of one another, these two should not be mixed.
Kaye

 

[renisel]

I kept a volitan lion with a sargassum frogfish for quite a while, and never had any problems. I've heard of others having similar success. I think that so long as the frog is smaller than the lion, but not small enough to fit in its mouth, you should generally be OK. I've only owned one frogfish, so most of my information on the matter is either anecdotal or second-hand, but my understanding is that when people say a frogfish will go after a fish up to 1-1/2 times its own size, they're talking about length, not actual size (volume). A long, slender fish is going to be a much more likely target than a tall and/or wide fish (like a lion or a tang). That's not to say it's unheard of for a frog to eat a lion, but I think that if you keep them at the proper relative sizes and provide them with sufficient space and food, you'll be OK.

 

[chris0796]

what if the lion is a 5-6 inch black volitan and the angler is a 3-3.1/2inch and a 9-10 inch snowflake my lfs has those in a tank together and i always feed the lion pellets when im in there and the lfs has had this tank going for months with these occupants

 

[aw2x3]

No matter the sizes of the fish, it's not going to work.
Anglers do not fare well with other tank mates. They either eat them, are eaten themselves or are out-competed for food.
They also require almost pristine water conditions (something you're not going to get with a Lion or Moray) and are highly intolerant of even the slightest nitrates.

 

[30-xtra high]

Originally Posted by chris0796
what if the lion is a 5-6 inch black volitan and the angler is a 3-3.1/2inch and a 9-10 inch snowflake my lfs has those in a tank together and i always feed the lion pellets when im in there and the lfs has had this tank going for months with these occupants
lol.. fish grow.. that lion will get over a foot, the snowflake will be just short of 3.. and i know nothing on anglers..

 

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
No matter the sizes of the fish, it's not going to work.
Anglers do not fare well with other tank mates. They either eat them, are eaten themselves or are out-competed for food.
They also require almost pristine water conditions (something you're not going to get with a Lion or Moray) and are highly intolerant of even the slightest nitrates.
I don't doubt that you're more experienced and more knowledgeable than I am in general, but I still feel compelled to go ahead and disagree with you here. I had a frog, volitan lion and snowflake eel together for about nine months with no confrontations between the frog and lion. The lion was about 9" and the frog was about 6". Neither species has the powerful jaws and sharp teeth necessary to tear apart large victims, so they won't generally try to eat anything they can't take down in one gulp. There was no way the frog was going to fit into the lion's mouth or vice versa. The issue of being out-competed for food is irrelevant if you train them both to eat frozen foods (which I found to be considerably easier than I had been led to believe it would be). Likewise, the water quality issues can be largely mitigated with regular water changes and a refugium with some chaeto. This may have been an exception to the rule--but I've also seen lions and frogs listed as being compatible on compatibility charts.

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat
I don't doubt that you're more experienced and more knowledgeable than I am in general, but I still feel compelled to go ahead and disagree with you here. I had a frog, volitan lion and snowflake eel together for about nine months with no confrontations between the frog and lion. The lion was about 9" and the frog was about 6". Neither species has the powerful jaws and sharp teeth necessary to tear apart large victims, so they won't generally try to eat anything they can't take down in one gulp. There was no way the frog was going to fit into the lion's mouth or vice versa. The issue of being out-competed for food is irrelevant if you train them both to eat frozen foods (which I found to be considerably easier than I had been led to believe it would be). Likewise, the water quality issues can be largely mitigated with regular water changes and a refugium with some chaeto. This may have been an exception to the rule--but I've also seen lions and frogs listed as being compatible on compatibility charts.
Considering the fact you haven't the slightest idea who I am or what my experiance level is, you're still entitled to disagree and I'm fine with that.
I do not, however, believe a word of your story. Saying that "Neither species has the powerful jaws and sharp teeth necessary to tear apart large victims, so they won't generally try to eat anything they can't take down in one gulp" shows that you don't have a clue about either fish, nor do you know what they're capable of. Both fish have small razor sharp teeth, that are designed to hold prey in their mouth, so they don't have to get it down in one bite.
I've owned a total of 6 Anglers (everything from Commersons to Wartskin to Nummifer to Dwarf) and have seen them eat fish twice their size, quite easily. Speak to anyone who's had success with Anglers (your 9 months is hardly a success) and you'll hear the same thing.

 

[shark bait]

I think you need to rethink what type of tank you want and make a fish list and then take out the fish that don't work. Just because the LFS has it set up dose not mean it will work. I have seen many fish in a tank that would necer work at home in the store. Often this is done because thy will sell fast ot the store has no place to put this type of fish. Any leaf fish, frog or angler need a tank all to their own. They can very easly go after prey larger than them. They make great pets in a large nano. But you can listen to someone who has experience keeping these fish; or take a chance. I would never put any fish in harms way nomater the price.

 

[stimpsonjcat]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
Considering the fact you haven't the slightest idea who I am or what my experiance level is, you're still entitled to disagree and I'm fine with that.
I do not, however, believe a word of your story. Saying that "Neither species has the powerful jaws and sharp teeth necessary to tear apart large victims, so they won't generally try to eat anything they can't take down in one gulp" shows that you don't have a clue about either fish, nor do you know what they're capable of. Both fish have small razor sharp teeth, that are designed to hold prey in their mouth, so they don't have to get it down in one bite.
I've owned a total of 6 Anglers (everything from Commersons to Wartskin to Nummifer to Dwarf) and have seen them eat fish twice their size, quite easily. Speak to anyone who's had success with Anglers (your 9 months is hardly a success) and you'll hear the same thing.
I don't think a disagreement is reason for calling me a liar. I've never stuck my finger into the mouth of either species, so I could very well have been wrong about the sharpness of their teeth; but the overall point of that statement was that they don't bite chunks out of their prey (as far as I know) and that their diets are therefore pretty much limited to things they can swallow whole. Maybe to say they only eat things they take down in one gulp was a bit of a misstatement. What I meant was that they don't eat things that won't actually fit inside them all at once--unlike other predators that might tear off a piece at a time, then just leave whatever they can't eat. I've seen them both grab onto a fish and gradually push it down with successive chomps, and I guess that doesn't really count as "one gulp".
I belive that you've seen an angler take down a fish twice its length--but I'm betting it was something fairly long and slender that could be folded up in its stomach. You're right that nine months isn't an incredibly large amount of experience with these species, but I do think it was enough to develop a level of basic familiarity with them. With the frog's girth, I would have been astounded if the lion could have gotten it in its mouth and down its throat. Likewise, it would seem virtually impossible for a healthy lion to fit inside a frog 2/3 its size. My frog's belly would start to look quite well-stretched after just a few silversides; the lion would have been many times that volume. I may be underestimating their abilities and if you have some specific examples that prove me wrong, I'd honestly like to hear about them.

 

[30-xtra high]

Originally Posted by AW2x3
Considering the fact you haven't the slightest idea who I am or what my experiance level is, you're still entitled to disagree and I'm fine with that.
I do not, however, believe a word of your story. Saying that "Neither species has the powerful jaws and sharp teeth necessary to tear apart large victims, so they won't generally try to eat anything they can't take down in one gulp" shows that you don't have a clue about either fish, nor do you know what they're capable of. Both fish have small razor sharp teeth, that are designed to hold prey in their mouth, so they don't have to get it down in one bite.
I've owned a total of 6 Anglers (everything from Commersons to Wartskin to Nummifer to Dwarf) and have seen them eat fish twice their size, quite easily. Speak to anyone who's had success with Anglers (your 9 months is hardly a success) and you'll hear the same thing.
just so you know before i say this, i completely believe you.
but how can a fish eat another fish as big or bigger than it is?, wouldn't that be like me eating a deer? and i can not comprehend how a fish can eat a fish with long venemous spines??
(once again.. i know you are right, i am just curious)

 

[psusocr1]

ive saw fish eat other larger fuish that they couldnt totally fit in their mouth.. you have to understand when in the wild its feast and famine,, so they have to eat or "try" to eat whatever they can when they get a chance which they will do.. thus leading to their eyes being bigger than their mouths..
its also not impossible to eat a venemous fish..this is why most fish have fake eyes on the back of them.. so when the fish tries to swollow it they cant because their spines will flare causing the fish to get poked...HENCE if the predator ate the prey "eye first" then it would slide right down its throat and he would have a good meal...

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by StimpsonJCat
I don't think a disagreement is reason for calling me a liar. I've never stuck my finger into the mouth of either species, so I could very well have been wrong about the sharpness of their teeth; but the overall point of that statement was that they don't bite chunks out of their prey (as far as I know) and that their diets are therefore pretty much limited to things they can swallow whole. Maybe to say they only eat things they take down in one gulp was a bit of a misstatement. What I meant was that they don't eat things that won't actually fit inside them all at once--unlike other predators that might tear off a piece at a time, then just leave whatever they can't eat. I've seen them both grab onto a fish and gradually push it down with successive chomps, and I guess that doesn't really count as "one gulp".
I belive that you've seen an angler take down a fish twice its length--but I'm betting it was something fairly long and slender that could be folded up in its stomach. You're right that nine months isn't an incredibly large amount of experience with these species, but I do think it was enough to develop a level of basic familiarity with them. With the frog's girth, I would have been astounded if the lion could have gotten it in its mouth and down its throat. Likewise, it would seem virtually impossible for a healthy lion to fit inside a frog 2/3 its size. My frog's belly would start to look quite well-stretched after just a few silversides; the lion would have been many times that volume. I may be underestimating their abilities and if you have some specific examples that prove me wrong, I'd honestly like to hear about them.
Back pedaling, much? Don't jump on here, have a few posts, talk poo poo to one of us and then back pedal when you get called out.

 

[aw2x3]

Originally Posted by 30-xtra high
just so you know before i say this, i completely believe you.
but how can a fish eat another fish as big or bigger than it is?, wouldn't that be like me eating a deer? and i can not comprehend how a fish can eat a fish with long venemous spines??
(once again.. i know you are right, i am just curious)
Their stomachs can stretch. Anglers also have a very, very slow digestive system. 99% of the time, if an Angler eats a fish it's own size, or bigger, it will die. They are not able to digest the large meal fast enough and the food pretty much rots in their stomach/digestive system.

 

[30-xtra high]

oh.. is there anything you don't know..

 

[v-lioness]

StimpsonJCat - I have also seen these two listed together on Compatibility charts, if you look at the compatibility charts they are not specific. An Example, it says Y to Lions and eels but really there are very few eels a lion can be housed with, it says C (Can co-exist with Caution) with triggers, Y to Puffers and Angels. It is a Basic Chart that does not Specify.
I can not tell you the countless threads I have read over the years about Anglers and Lions, Triggers and lions, Eels and lions, and I am sure AW has read their share of them also. However I did go and look for a few quotes from others, though I can not put in the links, I hope the quotes will be allowed.
Scott Michael
"I have had frogfish eat lionfish that were as long as they were, and there are reports of sharks, coronetfish and groupers eating lionfish. I have also seen larger angelfish, triggers and puffers nip at lionfish fin spines. Just because lionfish have a potent defense system does not mean they are invincible to attacks by other fish."
"Beware — not even the venomous spines of the scorpionfish will deter frogfishes from eating them if they are small enough. I have had several frogfish eat my lionfish, with no ill effects to the gluttonous antennariid!"
WildFilms - January 31, 2006
"Frogfish are extremely specialised piscivores (fish-eaters), with several extreme adaptations that help them catch their prey. They eat any fish they can successfully catch, and their mouth can extend up to 12 times its size to engulf larger prey items. They have been known to eat lionfish and scorpionfish without any ill-effects."
Frank Marini
"Even though lionfish are venomous, lionfish are not immune to being harassed or even eaten by other fish. Large eels, frogfish and other scorpion fish are all predators of lionfish in the wild. According to Michaels (1998), large angelfish, pufferfish, and triggerfish are also known to harass lionfish. Triggerfish are notorious for nipping off the dorsal spines before killing lionfish."
Kaye

 

[shark bait]

Originally Posted by 30-xtra high
oh.. is there anything you don't know..

No I think when it comes to fish it is cut and dry, and he seems to know his facts. I'd listen to him and the others, but hey who are we to tell you what to do with you money.

 

[30-xtra high]

Originally Posted by shark bait
No I think when it comes to fish it is cut and dry, and he seems to know his facts. I'd listen to him and the others, but hey who are we to tell you what to do with you money.
lol, are you mistaking me for the thread maker?.. i would never do anything like this.. especially after everybody telling me not to, i was just askin AW how that was possible, and now i know.