Electrical Wiring Question - SCSInet? wattsupdoc?

[jpc763]

I am putting a 125g in my basement. It will be using a 75g sump but with only about 10" of water in it. I am framing in a wall and running a circuit to it.
My first question is simple. Will a dedicated 20 A circuit be enough or should I run 2 15A circuit?
My second question should also be simple for the experts

. If I use a GFCI outlet for every one of the outlets on this(these) circuits, do I need any other form of GFCI?
Finally, the GFCIs I looked at over at HD are 15A. Will that be an issue?
Thanks in advance, John

 

[wattsupdoc]

Most likely one 20 amp circuit will handle what you are going to be using. However, 2 is always better as if something should happen and you trip the breaker, you can still run half your life support equipment. So 2 15 amp, would be better, you can use a 14-3 with ground cable to do this. Use a 12-3 with ground for two 20 amp circuits.
I would recommend using at least two GFI's regardless of what you do. Yes the 15 amp GFI's are fine, they are rated at 20 amps feed through, but will not take a 120v, 20 amp plug. It's physically made different with one blade horizontal as opposed to both vertical prongs.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2903518
Most likely one 20 amp circuit will handle what you are going to be using. However, 2 is always better as if something should happen and you trip the breaker, you can still run half your life support equipment. So 2 15 amp, would be better, you can use a 14-3 with ground cable to do this. Use a 12-3 with ground for two 20 amp circuits.
I would recommend using at least two GFI's regardless of what you do. Yes the 15 amp GFI's are fine, they are rated at 20 amps feed through, but will not take a 120v, 20 amp plug. It's physically made different with one blade horizontal as opposed to both vertical prongs.

 

[jpc763]

Why 12 3 or 14 3 vs. 12 2 or 14 2? Will the red wire connect to anything in the GFCI?
I will look at the panel and see if I can run 2 x 15
Also, I believe that you are supposed to balance the load on each phase of the panel. Correct?
Thanks again guys! I got an answer from both of you!

 

[cmaxwell39]

On a 115V circiut 12-2 or 14-2 should be fine. At least it meets codes around here. The only time you need to run 3 is if you are running a 230V circuit that has a component in it that requires a nuetral (such as a 115V clock in a 230V oven). That is my understanding anyway. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by cmaxwell39
http:///forum/post/2903763
On a 115V circuit 12-2 or 14-2 should be fine. At least it meets codes around here. The only time you need to run 3 is if you are running a 230V circuit that has a component in it that requires a neutral (such as a 115V clock in a 230V oven). That is my understanding anyway. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong.
You run one 12/3 with ground to make 2, 20 amp circuit and they share the white(neutral) wire. Instead of running 2, 12/2 's with ground. Of course you could run one 12(or 14)/2 w/gr to do just one circuit, or you could run 2 separate 12(or14)/2 w/gr to do two circuits.
If you do the shared neutral the breakers need to be placed on separate legs from each other. This generally means one located above the other. But can be actually located apart from each other as long as the legs are different.
Balancing would be done at the aquarium. But it's not essential. I would separate your equipment so as to have half your critical components split. You might even be able to do half your lighting, half your flow, half your heat, etc. But the heat and flow would definitely be critical. Make sense?

 

[scsinet]

A few notes to add on running a 3 wire shared neutral circuit...
Lots of people tend to think that if you run a shared neutral that you will overload the neutral if you do not balance things becuase the neutral wire is shared across two circuits. This won't happen unless you do not properly place the two breakers on two legs. As long as you do that, it will be fine. I won't bore you with why, it just will.
The easiest way to ensure that you do this correctly is to place the two breakers side-by side (one directly above the other) in the panel. If you put them in separate spots, you can do some testing, but I won't go into it unless you say that becomes necessary.
I also recommend that you do not use a tie-bar breaker (one of those double-toggle deals). They are commonly used for this type of circuit, but the idea here is redundancy, and you don't want a short circuit or overload on one side of your setup to trip out both outlets. A tie bar breaker trips both legs even if only one has a problem.
The one thing I must impress upon you though with this setup... when you are using a shared-neutral arrangement with GFIs, you CANNOT use GFIs in the breaker panel. You MUST use GFI receptacles or plug in GFI units. Furthermore, if you are using the "feedthrough" connections on GFI receptacles, to feed more outlets down the line, you must run a separate neutral off each GFI outlet to your downstream receptacles. Do not re-connect the neutrals together after the GFI outlets. If all this sounds complicated, don't sweat it. I imagine you aren't planning to use the feedthrough, that you are going from your panel to your outlets and that's it. If that's the case, just make sure you use GFI receptacles and not GFI breakers and you'll be fine.

 

[jpc763]

Once again, thanks for the info!
I do not plan to do the 3 wire shared neutral circuit. I already have a 50' spool of 14/2 Romex so I mgiht as well use it.
So what I plan to do is this.
Install 1 15A circuit with a single GFCI wall outlet to the left side of the tank.
Install 1 15A circuit with two GFCI wall outlets in series. The first to the ceiling and the second to the right side of the tank. That way I can plug the lighting above the tank.
Will there be any issue wiring two GFCI wall outlets in series?

BTW, I have done this already once in the basement to power my home network so I have a little (very little) experience. That is why I am confident doing this.
Thanks, John

 

[scsinet]

Circuit #1 sounds great.
Circuit #2...
You can do it two ways. You can install two separate GFIs, one in each outlet, or you can do one GFI that protects itself and the other outlet further down the line.
GFI's have two sets of terminals. A Line terminal and a load terminal.
In both situations, you have two outlet boxes. The first one, Box #1, has two cables in it. One from the breaker panel, one to box #2. The second box, box #2, has just the cable to box #1 in it. Most GFI receptacles have compression type sc-rew terminals that accept up to two conductors on each sc-rew. We will assume yours does.
In the first implementation, you'll put both black wires on the "Line Hot" terminal. You'll put both white wires on the "Line Neutral" terminal. You'll then connect both grounds together with a wire nut, along with a little jumper that goes into the wire nut and jumpers to the green ground terminal on the GFI. Nothing gets connected to load terminals.
In box #2, you'll connect the black, white, and ground to the respective "Line" terminals on the second GFI. Nothing gets connected to load terminals.
In this setup, both GFIs will work independantly, so if one trips, the other outlet stays hot, but protected.
In the second implementation, in box #1, you'll connect the black and white from the breaker panel to their respective line terminals. You'll connect the black and white to box #1 to their respective load terminals. The grounds will be treated the same as the first example.
In box #2, you'll connect an ordinary, non GFI receptacle as you no doubt have done before... black, white, ground, etc.
In this setup, if a fault happens anywhere, the GFI will trip and both outlets will shut down.
I hope that helps!

 

[jpc763]

Thanks as always!

 

[jpc763]

Well I wired it up this weekend. Total success!

This GFCI is only connected to the panel

This top GFCI is connected to the panel

and then to this outlet

Thanks again everyone for your help!
John

 

[scsinet]

I'm curious...
It appears you used 12 gauge wire to connect the two outlets together in photos 2 and 3, but only 14 gauge for your run back to the panelboard. I assume this is because you had some extra 12 gauge wire lying around?
It's not a problem, unless you sized the breaker at 20 amps.
It's also possible that the wire from your outlets to the panel is some older wire you had that was manufactured before they started color coding everything...

 

[scsinet]

One other thought... since you are dealing with new construction... it looks like you are remodeling a basement...
Have you considered:
... running a water line to behind the tank? That would be perfect if you wanted to locate an RO unit right under the tank for top off water...
... or running a couple of water lines from the tank to a utility room where you could mix water change water and pump it directly to the tank...
... or running some flexible hose like vinyl hose, PVC pipe, or spa-flex up to the outside if you were planning a chiller? Placing the chiller outside really cuts down on the noise and heat in the room... if you are planning a chiller...
... running a hose to the outside to pump wastewater out?
... Running pipes to a utility room and locating your sump/filtration system there?
I don't want to sound over excited, it's just that you have some unique opportunities when you are planning a fish tank before the sheetrock goes up, so now is the time to be thinking about some of those things....

 

[jpc763]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2909807
I'm curious...
It appears you used 12 gauge wire to connect the two outlets together in photos 2 and 3, but only 14 gauge for your run back to the panelboard. I assume this is because you had some extra 12 gauge wire lying around?
It's not a problem, unless you sized the breaker at 20 amps.
It's also possible that the wire from your outlets to the panel is some older wire you had that was manufactured before they started color coding everything...
Very perceptive!
Yes, the wire from the GFCI to the other outlet is 12 guage I had leftover from wiring up my work bench. Since it was the right length, I used it up!
John

 

[jpc763]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2909815
One other thought... since you are dealing with new construction... it looks like you are remodeling a basement...
Have you considered:
... running a water line to behind the tank? That would be perfect if you wanted to locate an RO unit right under the tank for top off water...
... or running a couple of water lines from the tank to a utility room where you could mix water change water and pump it directly to the tank...
... or running some flexible hose like vinyl hose, PVC pipe, or spa-flex up to the outside if you were planning a chiller? Placing the chiller outside really cuts down on the noise and heat in the room... if you are planning a chiller...
... running a hose to the outside to pump wastewater out?
... Running pipes to a utility room and locating your sump/filtration system there?
I don't want to sound over excited, it's just that you have some unique opportunities when you are planning a fish tank before the sheetrock goes up, so now is the time to be thinking about some of those things....
I wish!
I am just framing in a section of the basement so I can run power to it. The basement is too big to finish right now.

I am putting a utility sink in there as well and will hook my soon to be ordered RO/DI to it.
Bad news is that I can't really do any of those other things right now. Good news is that the basement will still be unfinished so I can do them over time!
The wastewater pump is a good idea....