Emperor Angel - Ich?

[scsinet]

I think I have an Emperor Angel with Ich, but I wanted to get input from you guys.
Small white spots cover his body and fins, but they seem smaller than what I remember Ich to look like (it looks almost like powder). They are definitely NOT microbubbles. Overnight, his color has seriously declined. He is now very blotchy and whiteish.
He seems interested in food, but doesn't do much eating. He stays in a dark corner of the tank, vertically, but will swim if interested enough with goings-on elsewhere in the tank. I counted 120 gill movements per minute. He has no trouble swimming when he wants to.
I have not seen scratching. No other fish in the system is visibly affected.
This is a 120 gallon FO system.
Water Parameters:
pH: 8.2
SG: 1.022
Temp: 77
Free Ammonia: 0
Total Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 1-2
Livestock:
Emperor Angel (juv)
Volitan Lion (juv)
Pearlscale Butterfly
Snowflake Eel (juv)
Sailfin Tang
Last night I began dropping my salinity in a move towards a system hyposalinity treatment at 1.009, as I'm pretty sure this is a parasite. I'd rather not use chemicals if I can help it and I do NOT want to treat the system or the fish alone with copper or malachite if I can help it, but I'll do it if it means saving the angel.
Full resolution copies of the two pictures are at:
www.davestanks.com/images/angelsick/100_1026.jpg
www.davestanks.com/images/angelsick/100_1025.jpg
Thoughts?

 

[peter1215]

hey SCSI, your fish looks like it has Marine velver(oodiniumocellatum). see the attached link from wet web media with symptoms and treatment. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm
This kills fish very fast so i would not waste any time. I treated some fish a while back with cuppramine(copper) and HYPOsalinity was able to save the fish. good luck .

 

[scsinet]

Oh great... don't tell me that, that's not easy to fix...
I guess I'll FW dip the fish to try to knock the infection back a smidge, to give copper a chance to work and use copper in a HT.
... at least he's a juvi so I don't have to have a huge HT set up for this.

 

[scsinet]

Ok, all,
Peter, LFS concurs with your assessment and I do as well... reluctantly. Never underestimate the power of denial.
Here is what I have done and what I plan to do...
I am holding SG at 1.020 for the time being. My dropping also meant that at least 20% of the water was changed, so I am not doing another water change... yet.
I have performed a freshwater dip on the Angel for 20 minutes in pH/temp adjusted RO. I used 2 gallons of water and 10ml of Seachem Paragard.
The parasites have dropped off the fish and he seems to be a little more energetic.
I noticed that my Pearl Scale butterfly is also starting to show spots. So far, this has not affected his energy level or desire for food at all, but I want to nip this in the bud before it spreads to his tankmates. He is proving hard to catch, and I am afraid that stressing him before the parasite does by trying to catch him will only speed the parasite up, so I am going to treat the system.
I am going to add copper to the system to bring the tank up to .13mg/L. I will be mixing 30 gallons of seawater as soon a I have enough RO to do it, so I can have that on standby in case I see problems develop as a result of the treatment.
I am going to perform another 10-15% change this weekend, maintaining SG.
Does anyone have any additional input to offer? Beth, my readings tell me this is your department, and I hope you read this... am I on the right track?
Thanks in advance...

 

[jerrybsal]

I hope I am reading this wrong,is the angel in a QT. tank or is he still in the 120. I would NEVER add copper to the main tank, not only will it kill all of your LR it will remain in the system and one day bite you. Copper works wonders in a small tanks with no substrate and rock.Good luck.

 

[scsinet]

It's not a reef tank; there is no live rock or inverts. No, I wouldn't ever try that either.
I know of the effects it has on the substrate, but I ultimately decided to go ahead. If you see my first post, you can see I shared the same apprehension as you did, and it was for the same reasons.
What made me decide to go ahead was that I had more fish turning up with symptoms. My choices were either to pull all of the fish out and quarantine them for 2-4 weeks to break the life cycle in the main tank, or to treat the whole system and just nail everything at one time. I don't have a quarantine tank (or anything I can use for one) around to handle this number and this size of fish. What's more, even if I did, i'd be having to do so many water changes so often as I wouldn't have an established bio-filter to handle them, that it would quickly outweigh the cost of the livestock.
I figured that yes, I'd damage 40-50 dollars worth of substrate as far as usefulness in reefs go, but it's worth if if I cure and/or prevent further outbreaks.
BTW, I lost the angel about 5 hours ago. I am hoping at this point that I can save my pearlscale butterfly who is showing signs, and prevent it in my other fish.

 

[peter1215]

SCSI, sorry about your angel and best of luck with the other fish. You should keep a sponge in your sump so you can use it for a QT filter in cases like this .

 

[scsinet]

Hmmmm... I never thought of that... that's a great idea. I'll start doing that.
My Pearlscale Butterfly started breathing very quickly today and his activity started going down, so I dipped him and got rid of all the visible spots. He is still breathing heavily, but is a LOT more active than the angel ever was after the dip, so I am hoping I caught it early enough in him to make a difference.
My tank is running at .15mg/L of Cu, so I think that will stop any further propogation.