Emperor angelfish issues

M

Mihai

Guest
Hi. I need some advice. My emperor has a disease that looks like HLLE but I an not sure. For me looks different. It just has some holes. Recently it went through marine velvet treatment and was scratching a lot. But now marine velvet is gone and it still has those holes. No behavior changes. Many thanks.
 

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beth

Administrator
Staff member
Confirmed for HLLE and perhaps the beginning of an infection in the mouth area where the redness is (though that might be irritation from rubbing). How did you confirm Amyloodinium ? And how did you treat it? Was this fish quarantined for treatment?

What are your current water readings in the aquaria (include pH and nitrate). Is your tank LR, and what is the size? What are you feeding this fish and how often? More details about your tank and husbandry if you need help with the HLLE.
 
M

Mihai

Guest
Thanks for reply. Here you are some info about tank
- PH is around 8.4
- nitrate - I didn't measure it
- tank size - 200 gallons plenty of hinging places
- 13 years old fish only tank
- live stock: 3 ocellaris clownfish, 1 Heniochus diphreutes, 1 goby, 1 Centropyge bicolor, 6 Chrysiptera hemicyanea
- I periodically add Biodigest from Prodibio - I do it for over 10 years and worked well so far
- I also use AV filter
- the HLLE affects only the emperor and the banner fish. the rest are just fine
- I feed them with frozen artemia & krill, ocean nutrition pellets, sea green algae
- no activated carbon
- I don't have a quarantine tank - the fish is too large and I don't have space for another large tank

I have the emperor for 6-7 years. Everything was just fine until November 2020 after I added some new fishes and had a water change. I lost some fishes after that.
I confirmed the confirm Amyloodinium via observation - there were all typical symptoms. I treated with Pointex from Aqua Medic. It worked very well, but I had to do the treatment twice - November and February.
The HLLE started after the first treatment session, in December. Indeed the emperor was rubbing a lot in those days.

My concern is if this HLLE is because of water quality, the stress of cooper from the treatment. Just to mention that after the 2nd treatment the level of copper was near to 0. And now is dropping fast to 0.
I read that another potential factor could be the stray voltage. I have some wave makers for over 8 years from Aqua Medic which still work perfect. Could that be the real cause?

Many thanks
 

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beth

Administrator
Staff member
Its quite concerning that you put copper in your fish tank. That would have a major negative impact on a tank with live rock and sand. You do not have a fish only tank if you have live rock. Live rock is live because of the invertebrate marine organisms and algae living in the rock. I couldn't find an ingredients list for Pointex other than vague references to natural ingredients, but you mentioned copper. If you have a list of ingredients, please let us know.

Can you post up all of your water readings: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. This is important. What do you use for your source water? How often are you doing water changes?

As to stray voltage, you have had this fish for years wo problems and now you have a problem due to the treatments last year. IMO the best course of action is to work toward bringing the environment of your aqua back to pre-treatment conditions, if possible. Copper tends to linger in aquariums becoming absorbed in to the rocks, the glass seals, plastic/rubber equipment, etc.

Begin using Selcon by American Marine, Inc. This will help address the HLLE.
https://americanmarineusa.com/pages/selcon

I'd recommend doing daily or every other day water changes, 2 gals a day, using RO or DI water (test it to insure no nitrates unless you have your own marine RODI system). Continue doing this until the fish improves. If you have high nitrates, then we'll need to discuss that problem and what to do.

You need a QT if you plan to add more fish. The likely result of not having one can is loosing your fish and possibly even your whole system. A 30 gal system should work fine. If fish are properly QT-ed before adding them in your tank, you will not find yourself in a situation where you need to QT all your fish due to a disease you've introduced into your system. QT prevents diseases in the display tank.

 
M

Mihai

Guest
I know that is not good to put copper in the tank but the emperor is quite large and a don't have any quarantine tank for its size. Actually I had the same issues years ago and I went trough the outbreak pretty well without fish loss. I know also that the copper affects the live rock as well. I use to have until this velvet outbreak a lot of small invertebrates in the sand. I did rare water change - I used one doze of Biodigest per week and it seems kept an acceptable water quality.
Here you are the reference for Pointex https://www.completeaquatics.co.uk/amedic-pointex-100ml. It is very effective against parasites.
Just to mention that I used tape water and with it was pretty ok in the past 15 years since I have salt water tanks.
I did additional water quality measurements: NH4: 0.5 mg/l, NO2: 1 mg/l and NO3 - 50 mg/l. Nitrate is indeed at a high level.
The event I can associate with the Amyloodinium outbreak is that I changed the salt brand, last times I had RedSea which is claimed to be natural from the Red Sea.
I will do as you said water changes at every 2 days until the nitrate will drop and monitor carefully other water quality parameters.
Thank you!
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
There is no ingredients listed on the webpage; only vague references to having natural ingredients. How do you know it has copper? Is it only copper? What kind of copper?

High nitrate commonly results in HLLE problems with surgeonfish and angels; and some forms of copper has also been thought to be a problem for these fish as well. High nitrates means that your systems is not adequately exporting waste nutrients. A lot of tap water supplies also has nitrates which, if so, results in your aquarium organisms contributing to the high nitrates and your water supply as well. Test your source water.

Is your emperor HLLE getting worse, or staying stable? If it is not progressing, you can try just using the Selcon I suggested and see if that will do the job. If not, then maybe consider upping environmental care for your system. No meds. Add some macroalgae to help out with the nitrates. Use RODI water. Installing your own RODI is really not overly expense, and you can also connect it to your fridge giving you high quality drinking and ice water.
 
M

Mihai

Guest
Actually the emperor was just fine until today when I did a water change, and now it hides - I reduced the lighting. Besides the holes it didn't have any other issue until today. It has a visible discomfort and rubs the sand. Still eating. I noticed that higher temperature makes it feel better. Banner fish is also not very comfortable. There rest of the fishes are just fine! I added Biodigest to help with bacteria. I will do water changes after couple of days. I will also use Selcon. I just found a local supplier. Indeed I will have to consider RODI. It might be the water supply the problem. Thank you.
 
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