Explanation Needed of Nitrogen bubbles in sandbed.

azocean709

Member
i remember reading on here something of nitrogen bubbles in my sand bed...I cant remember if it was good or bad. If someone could give me an explanation of it i would greatly appreciate it. thank you in advance.
scott.
florida.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
The ammonia cycle takes place mostly in aerobic conditons (oxygen rich). Ammonia<nitrite<nitrate.
Now, if your tank has sufficient "anearobic" (non oxygen) bacteria as well then the nitrate can be further broken into hydrogen gas and oxygen. Your sand bed has to be sufficient enough to provide anearobic conditions for this to take place.
Bubbles from the sand can also be caused by hydrogen sulfide. This is deadly to your tank. I'm not familiar with the chemical process for this however, so others will have to explain it to you.
If you maintain a healthy sand bed (critters keeping the top 1-2 inches) stirred you should have no worries.
 

azocean709

Member
1 to 2 inches? that is alot of movement.you think 20 blue legs and 4 velvet hermits and one brittle star can do that.? its a 55 gallon. 3 inch sand bed.
 

clarki

Member
Please give more explanation on this.... I think this may be my problem... I have bubbles on my sand and now the red slime algae and I've been struggling with amonia spikes since I moved and had to move the whole tank (I also upgraded to a larger one at the same time) THAT might be the whole problem right there!!
But I need to hear more about how that works....
 

dburr

Active Member
The bubbles are nitrogen. They will come to the top of the sandbed and bubble out of the tank into the air. The process is complete. The sandbed is doing what it is suposed to be doing. Worms and such are all you need for sand stirrers. If you mess to much with the bed you will end up killing more of the bacteria that completes the process. I am not positive on this but; the red slime you are talking about can also be caused by what I just said; dying bacteria from the sandbed.
My word of advice is to leave the bed alone and beef up the water flow where you see the red slime. Syphone some of it out if you can also.
 

dburr

Active Member
When did you move the tank? Moving a whole sandbed will start the cycle all over again but IME, is lasts for only 4/5 days.
 

lepete

Member
If your sandbeed is < 4" deep, the bubbles are oxygen, a product of photosynthesis. Nitrogen (N2) only occurs in deep, fine sandbeds (> 6"+)
Bubbles on the surface of the sand is O2. Bubbles in the sand on the edge of the glass is usually O2 (unless you have DSB).
 

dburr

Active Member
Cut and paste from another web site.
The nitrogen cycle is composed of 4 basic steps.
Ammonia: Ammonia (NH3) initially enters the system via biological waste. These wastes may come from fish poop or dead organisms which are decaying in the tank. These wastes mineralize into the compound ammonia. Ammonia is a very toxic compound. Bacteria which colonize rock and sand surfaces utilize ammonia as food and convert it into a new compound called nitrite. Ammonia should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.
Nitrite: Nitrite (NO2) is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. Fortunately, there are other types of bacteria that also colonize sand and rock surfaces which consume nitrites as food and convert them into nitrates. Nitrites should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.
Nitrate: Nitrate (NO3) is a relatively harmless compound. Nitrates tend to accumulate in the reef system if it is not setup correctly. Fish can tolerate fairly high nitrate levels, but most corals do not. Nitrate is also a plant fertilizer, so its accumulation can lead to algae problems. The brute force way to control nitrates is to do large water changes and therefore dilute the nitrate levels, but there is a better, more natural way to deal with nitrates. Nitrates in a fully cycled tank should ideally remain at zero, but up to about 20ppm is acceptable. Higher levels may lead to issues with coral health or algae growth in the tank. Some corals may actually benefit from the higher nitrate levels, but they are atypical.
Nitrogen: In a properly setup reef tank, the nitrates can be further processed by special types of bacteria which convert the nitrates into harmless nitrogen gases which escape into the atmosphere. When the process includes this step, the nitrogen cycle is completed and the tank will maintain zero nitrates without significant water changes or the requirement for specialized external equipment to remove it from the system. The key to this final step is to provide oxygen poor areas of sand or rock. The bacteria which perform this last step of the process only live in oxygen poor (anaerobic) areas of the tank. The surest way to establish these anaerobic areas is to include a sand bed that has sufficient depth and sufficiently small particle size to restrict water flow in the lower areas of the bed.
 

dburr

Active Member
Establishing the nitrogen cycle in the reef tank
It should be somewhat obvious that to establish the bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrites, a source of ammonia must be added to the tank. Once these bacteria start producing nitrites, the bacteria which convert nitrites into nitrates can start to establish themselves and of course, once nitrates are available, the nitrate converting bacteria can start to establish themselves, providing the hobbyist has taken steps to provide a suitable oxygen poor home for them.
The 'trick' to establishing the nitrogen cycle in the tank is to do it without endangering any tank inhabitants. This generally means that the part of the cycle which converts ammonia to nitrate should be established before any specimens are added. Fortunately a ready supply of ammonia is introduced with the live rock that is introduced into the system. As the live rock goes through its curing process, the decaying life forms on the rock provide the starter fuel for ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria to colonize the rock. When live rock is being cured and this process is getting setup, toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite can form and specimens cannot be introduced until it is verified that both ammonia and nitrite have dropped to zero levels through the use of test kits. Typically, while this process in occurring, the hobbyist will measure an increase in ammonia and then it will start to drop as ammonia consuming bacteria start to grow. The hobbyist will then measure an increase in nitrites as the ammonia gets converted to nitrite. As the nitrite consuming bacteria start to grow, the nitrite level will also start to fall. When both ammonia and nitrite levels fall to zero levels, the cycling is complete. Typically, the nitrates will be high at this stage and the water that was involved in establishing the cycle should be replaced with new saltwater.
Once the live rock is cured, the basic tank cycle has been established and the live rock can be stacked in its final arrangement in the tank. Even though the basic bacteria types have been established, the number of bacteria will fluctuate depending on the bioload of the system. Also, there is probably not much bacterial colonization of the sand bed at this point. Therefore it is important to increase the bioload of the system slowly so that the bacteria colonies can grow to match the load of the system. If a lot of fish are added to a newly cycled tank, the sudden increase in waste products will cause a new mini cycle to start all over and since there are specimens in the tank, they are at risk of death or injury due to the ammonia or nitrite spikes that will occur. Corals and clams do not generally add bioload to the system, so they can be added more freely than fish or other critters that require constant feeding.
The final part of the nitrogen cycle (converting nitrates to nitrogen gas) has to be established after the tank is setup. The first thing that a hobbyist must do is to ensure that the reef tank provides oxygen poor regions in the live rock and sand. Old school was that this was to be avoided at all costs due to the concern over noxious gases, such as hydrogen sulfide, being formed. This concern seems to be overly exaggerated and can probably be ignored for the most part. It is important however, that once these oxygen poor zones are created, that they not be unduly disturbed.
 

dburr

Active Member
To setup these anaerobic regions I recommend the following:
Provide a substrate of sand which is no larger than 1-2mm and which can be finer. With this size of sand, a sand bed with approximately 2" of depth should be provided. This is sufficient to ensure that the deeper areas of the sand bed will become anaerobic and allow nitrate processing bacteria to colonize it. This is an area in which DSB's (deep sand beds) are often recommended. However the same thing can be accomplished without the 4-6" deep sand beds which are recommended by DSB advocates.
Going against common wisdom in the literature these days, placing live rock directly on top of the substrate also helps to create these anaerobic regions. Many hobbyist spend a lot of effort to provide frameworks to keep the live rock off the sand to allow full circulation, but I believe this effort is misguided. For instance, I see people suspending their live rock on PVC pipe so that they get full water circulation and then they install a DSB to establish oxygen poor zones. Seems counter productive to me. The same thing can be accomplished by placing the live rock directly on a 2" deep sand bed. It is easier and it occupies less of the tank depth.
There are also some things to avoid that can tend to impair the nitrate conversion process:
Do not use a wet/dry filter with biomedia such as bioballs. It has been established that these filters do a good job of converting wastes into nitrate, but their use tends to cause nitrates to accumulate in the system. The reason why is not well understood, but many hobbyist have been able to cure nitrate problems by removing the biomedia from their filters. One school of thought is that when nitrates are created in the sand bed, they are created near the nitrate converting bacteria in the lower regions of the sand bed and therefore get processed more readily. It is recommended that anyone who is running a wet/dry and who has nitrate accumulation problems should consider slowly removing the biomedia over the course of a couple of weeks to give time for the system to adjust.
Do not use coarse crushed coral for the substrate. The large particle size allows too much water circulation which does not allow the necessary anaerobic regions to develop.
Do not disturb the deeper regions of the sand bed any more than necessary. This obviously disturbs the anaerobic regions. This typically means that you don't want to use a siphon to clean the sand bed. If you must for some reason, try to limit this actively to a small region of the tank only (10%?) so that the majority of the filtration process stays intact. A light stirring of the upper portion of the sand bed through the actions of sand sifter creatures or through the actions of the hobbyist are fine.
Do not overfeed the tank. Once a tank is established, the primary source of inputs into the nitrogen cycle are introduced through feeding of the tank. Although a reef tank does not need to be starved, like early authors tend to state, feeding excessive amounts of food can aggravate the process and should be looked at as a variable that can be controlled if nitrates tend to accumulate. Some people like to feed heavily and this can often be tolerated as long as the food is increased slowly so that the bacteria colonies have time to grow to a size sufficient to process the increased bioload.
 

euphoria

Active Member
Why wouldn't you also have nitrogen bubbles inside a non-DSB? Do you really need 6" of sand to successfully convert nitrates to nitrogen gas?
I just setup my 180 w/ 3-4" of sand. I hope it'll do fine.
NEVER MIND :) You already made a very useful post and answered my q.
 

fish fever

Member
I have an 1" sand bed (some area is thicker than other) in my 95g. Should I add more sand? I have 3 chromis and a valentini puffer in the tank. How to add sand without causing harm to the fish? Can I leave them in the tank while adding sand? It will be very stressful and difficult to get them out of the tank. Please advise.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
To further explain.. according to Calfo and Fenner:
A sand bed should be less than 2 inches, or greater than 4 inches.
A shallow sand bed allows for critters to keep it clean.
A deep sand bed allows for anearobic bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle.
A sand bed between 2-4 inches is neither, and can allow the buildup of harmful detritus.
 

azocean709

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
To further explain.. according to Calfo and Fenner:
A sand bed should be less than 2 inches, or greater than 4 inches.
A shallow sand bed allows for critters to keep it clean.
A deep sand bed allows for anearobic bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle.
A sand bed between 2-4 inches is neither, and can allow the buildup of harmful detritus.
well i disagree with the 4th...because my sandbed is 3 inches and it seems to be doing what it is supposed to do. that is why i asked about the bubbles in my tank! LOL
 

azocean709

Member
dBUR...Thank you very much for the info that you provided! that is exactly what I was looking for...i went to a seminar on salt tanks awhile ago and he explained all of that but i forgot. I won't forget this time!! Thanks again!
 

dburr

Active Member
Your welcome.
Feverfish: Try putting sand in a bag and lowering to the bottom and slowly pour it out or pour it thru a big dia PVC pipe. Either way you will get a sand storm, but it might not be as bad.
Turn off power head when you do it, and turn them back on after.(make sure that they are not pointing down)
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by AzOcean709
well i disagree with the 4th...because my sandbed is 3 inches and it seems to be doing what it is supposed to do. that is why i asked about the bubbles in my tank! LOL
I've heard that a lot. I've never tried it so I can't say one way or the other. That's why when I talk about sand beds I try to quote the pros.
 

fish fever

Member
Originally Posted by dburr
Your welcome.
Feverfish: Try putting sand in a bag and lowering to the bottom and slowly pour it out or pour it thru a big dia PVC pipe. Either way you will get a sand storm, but it might not be as bad.
Turn off power head when you do it, and turn them back on after.(make sure that they are not pointing down)
Thank you for the advice. I think that will work.
 
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