Fabnaq

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by mfp1016
Maybe not to freshwater, but there are corals that live in salinities above and below our beloved 1.026. Also, if saltwater and freshwater mix in any proportion, salt will still be in that water. Thus, it seems to me that you could still acclimate most aquatic animals to their new conditions.
On a completely different note, how many of the atheists or anti-creationists are actually scientists?
I suppose you would need to calculate the dillution that would result if sealevel was raised to a point to cover all land mass. That seems like an awful high amount of freshwater being added severly lowering the total salinity of the ocean, much more then the minor variation that most saltwater organisms could tolerate. The same goes the other way, there are freshwater organisms that cannot tolerate high salt level. The fact that a few can does not mean they all can.
As far as your question, I am none of the three things you mentioned but I do like to ask questions.

 

[ruaround]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
No, I got ya.
Here's the thing, however; I could have just as easily answered the majority of those questions with one word: God.
How did fish survive? God
How did animals get on ark? God
Where did the rain go? God.
Etc....
Like I said, if you believe in a God that created the universe little details like salinity become irrelevant.
1. via the o2 in the water... the ability to live in ever changing "climates", ability to migrate, the ability to adapt...
2. they walked... if there really was an ark big enough for 2 x 2s of EVERY animal why hasnt it been found??? not to mention displacement... all the weight plus provisions for EVERY 2 x 2... wasnt the Arc mae of wood???
3. subsided and froze... went into the ground to make "water tables"...
*bolded portion... that makes absolutely NO SENSE!!! i thought that God payed attention to EVERY detail... but only left one to make a choice...
thats all i have to say about this... other than a thread like this is a broken freakin record... 3 to 5 posters and one with the "devine power" to shut it down...

 

[saltn00b]

If God is All powerful, and can accomplish any task instantly with nothing but the thought to do it, why did the earth take 6 days?
or could it be that the story was adopted and adapted from other major religions? Many religions all celebrate a sabbath, or holy day of the week, for similar reasoning. Why do Jews celebrate from friday night -> saturday night, and christians who share the same book of genesis celebrate sunday?

 

[jerthunter]

Regarding you question about if God is all powerful why would he need to take six days, the best answer I can think of is, God is transendant and so the only knowledge of his nature would have to come from him. Therefore it seems like it is pointless to try to disprove or prove anything about a being that can only be know if that being chooses to reveal information about her/himself.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by ruaround
2. they walked... if there really was an ark big enough for 2 x 2s of EVERY animal why hasnt it been found??? not to mention displacement... all the weight plus provisions for EVERY 2 x 2... wasnt the Arc mae of wood???

They believe they have found it on a MT. in Turkey, however government of Turkey is not allowing anyone to go to the site or research it last I heard. But there are sattelite photos of what is believed to have possibly been the ark...
also, I believe there were fewer species then and only the core groups were taken on the ark, through evolution we now have the rest. It can be explained scientifically in a feasible manner, just have to think a bit.

 

[earlybird]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
They believe they have found it on a MT. in Turkey, however government of Turkey is not allowing anyone to go to the site or research it last I heard. But there are sattelite photos of what is believed to have possibly been the ark...
I remember reading about this.
I believe it is proven that the "Epic of Gilgamesh" is one of the oldest stories still in physical existence. There was mention of a huge flood. It dates back to the first Sumerian civilization where life relied on the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers which was very inconsistent. Meaning, it sometimes didn't flood and sometimes it flooded very violently. Just a little FYI.

 

[saltn00b]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
also, I believe there were fewer species then and only the core groups were taken on the ark, through evolution we now have the rest. It can be explained scientifically in a feasible manner, just have to think a bit.

fewer species when man was still homosapien?
when exactly did this ark float then?
5000 years ago? 150,000 years ago? 1 million ? prior to the bronze age? the iron age? the stone age?
and how many new species have evolved since that time? from how many base species? what examples of species evolving in this time period can you give? how are you concluding that they have evolved in this time frame?

 

[saltn00b]

Originally Posted by earlybird
I remember reading about this.
I believe it is proven that the "Epic of Gilgamesh" is one of the oldest stories still in physical existence. There was mention of a huge flood. It dates back to the first Sumerian civilization where life relied on the flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers which was very inconsistent. Meaning, it sometimes didn't flood and sometimes it flooded very violently. Just a little FYI.

this is correct, possibly the oldest known religion of mankind was that of the ancient sumerians, and their creation myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
this myth as well as MANY other stories and historical documents tell stories of a great flood, passed down by word through generations.
unfortunately, the Sumerian civilization peeked in Mesopotamia from roughly 6500 to 5000 years ago. this civilization fell roughly 1000 years before the first story of judeo-christian bible would supposedly take place, the story of God giving the covenant to Abraham....
therefor if you take everything literally, Noah being a Jew, would have to come after this time period. yet, almost all civilizations and religions speak of a great flooding with the same themes.
Recently there has been evidence that the black sea may have been the place where the great flood happened. It lies below sea level and is seperated from the mediterranean sea by a slim mountainous region. The recent evidence depicts that the Black Sea was much small several thousand years ago, and when a catastrophic earth moving event took place, caused some of the mountains to collapse, releasing the mediterranian onto the flood plains of the area, like a tub of water losing a portion of a wall. The dawn of civilized man lived in that region and told generations upon generations of this terrible event.

 

[shogun323]

I personally believe that Noahs flood was a localized flood. Not Global. My understanding is that in the original Biblical text there was no word that meant world, only land. I don't think Noah knew how vast our world is. It would have also been feasable for him for him to take 2 or every indigenous animal from his area.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
fewer species when man was still homosapien?
when exactly did this ark float then?
5000 years ago? 150,000 years ago? 1 million ? prior to the bronze age? the iron age? the stone age?
and how many new species have evolved since that time? from how many base species? what examples of species evolving in this time period can you give? how are you concluding that they have evolved in this time frame?

Ok, for myself to get involved with this type of a conversation would take to much time. I have my beliefs, taken from science, and various other religious. which I believe all do coincide with each other. Religion and science go hand in hand in my opinion, to rule out one completely and only go with the other is preposterous to me. You can use science to support theories in religions and back up how stories could have happenned. People take the bible to literally which I believe you can not do as with time things are lost in translations, due to possible forms of slang and such. Case in point someone reading about the 1980's in the U.S. might be confused by the word bad as in certain context and expressions it could mean, cool, good, awesome, horrible, and bad. So nothing can be taken literally in my opinion.
Science alone can not stand on it's own legs either, as for every study showing one thing there are 6 others stating the opposite or trying to prove a different possibility.
If you are truly interested on how I explain certain biblical evenmts are possible based off my studies and beliefs, pm me, but to explain it here would take a longtime and get muddled up by other questions and posts.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by shogun323
I personally believe that Noahs flood was a localized flood. Not Global. My understanding is that in the original Biblical text there was no word that meant world, only land. I don't think Noah knew how vast our world is. It would have also been feasable for him for him to take 2 or every indigenous animal from his area.
exactly since most of the bible spans from egypt to Isreal for the most part, this immediate area would have constituted the "world".

 

[shogun323]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Ok, for myself to get involved with this type of a conversation would take to much time. I have my beliefs, taken from science, and various other religious. which I believe all do coincide with each other. Religion and science go hand in hand in my opinion, to rule out one completely and only go with the other is preposterous to me. You can use science to support theories in religions and back up how stories could have happenned. People take the bible to literally which I believe you can not do as with time things are lost in translations, due to possible forms of slang and such.
Nicely Done!!!!! (insert smiley on hands clapping!!!!!)

 

[saltn00b]

Darth , i agree with you on many points. these questions are not an attempt to seperate ones beliefs from their religion. many scientists are not atheists. People are free to draw the line where they may. These questions are to ask those that take the creationism part of the bible of their choice as literal gospel, word for word. For those that take it so literal that they challenge science (some would say blindly) on faith. When asked to explain beliefs, it seems unanswerable questions are always defaulted to "i dont know, but God does, and God is infallable so therefore i am right."
This line of thinking is scary to me, this is similar to the line of thinking that gets people killed. Im sure we have all heard that almost all wars ever fought were over religion, and more people have died in the name "god" than anything else and yadda yadda yadda...
I personally sometimes think that God can be found in the science. Found in the perfection of mathematics. In the harmony of natural order, the balance of delicate ecosystems. In everything in our world and beyond. way, way beyond. I dont take what some other human wrote as the divine word of a gray haired old man in the sky.
speaking of numbers, i ran some for fun.
by 2012 there will be roughly 1,750,000 catalogued, known, seperate and distinct species (right now there are 1,009,000). If Noah built the ark by himself, and was a fast carpenter, and only took 1 day to build the average holding cell for each of these species, it would take him 9589 years to complete this construction. If he was born 2000 BC, he would still be working now, and be on duty, with no vacation for many more thousands of years. After which, he still needs to build the rest of the ship. With no heavy machinery.
Now, if we average out all species, spacial requirements, then lets say we need a 3' x 3' x 3'enclosure as the average holding cell. (probably smaller due to the microbes, etc) that is 27 cubic feet. The holding cells alone on the ark would then have a volume of 94,500,000 cubic feet. 94.5 million cubic feet isnt so bad you say? well for comparison, The world's largest structure by volume, the Boeing Plant in Everett, Washington, is a mere 13,300,000 cubic feet. So now you see where those 9589 years go to, one guy has to build something that is 7.1 times the size of the largest building on the planet today.

 

[darthtang aw]

I will conceed there are some things in the bible that can not be proven with science or explained with science or translation errors possibly. For example the ressurection of Christ. That is also why it is called faith. because to believe it you must have :faith". The same can be said about science...(big bang theory). You just have faith...that is it. Neither is the end all prove all method, combined you get much closer, but some is still taken on faith for either "religion" (science or christianity, muuslim, hindu, what have you). It all boils down to faith in the end.

 

[jmick]

You also need a lot of faith to even believe in Christ, since all of the evidence about him is hearsay.

 

[mfp1016]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
I will conceed there are some things in the bible that can not be proven with science or explained with science or translation errors possibly. For example the ressurection of Christ. That is also why it is called faith. because to believe it you must have :faith". The same can be said about science...(big bang theory). You just have faith...that is it. Neither is the end all prove all method, combined you get much closer, but some is still taken on faith for either "religion" (science or christianity, muuslim, hindu, what have you). It all boils down to faith in the end.
What cracks me up is that so many people think science is an infallible truth; whereas science is something that takes as much faith as any religion. Thats my .02 as a scientist/believer in God. I will concede that it can be hard for people to believe in organization of religion and I understand completely if someone chooses a more personal connection to a creator.

 

[mfp1016]

This line of thinking is scary to me, this is similar to the line of thinking that gets people killed. Im sure we have all heard that almost all wars ever fought were over religion, and more people have died in the name "god" than anything else and yadda yadda yadda...
QUOTE]
I think your muttling religious dogma and people's interpretation of it.

 

[jerthunter]

Originally Posted by mfp1016
What cracks me up is that so many people think science is an infallible truth; whereas science is something that takes as much faith as any religion. Thats my .02 as a scientist/believer in God. I will concede that it can be hard for people to believe in organization of religion and I understand completely if someone chooses a more personal connection to a creator.
Science is not infallible truth, everyone should realize that. However, science is debatable. New information is discovered, analyzed, and theories are made and disproved. However most religious followers do not both to debate their religion, they just stick with one and defend it to the end.

 

[mfp1016]

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Science is not infallible truth, everyone should realize that. However, science is debatable. New information is discovered, analyzed, and theories are made and disproved. However most religious followers do not both to debate their religion, they just stick with one and defend it to the end.
Thats not quite true, church catechism changes all of the time.
Yes, we are in agreeance then. But unfortunately many people don't understand what science; they don't realize that science doesn't explain, it describes.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by saltn00b
this is correct, possibly the oldest known religion of mankind was that of the ancient sumerians, and their creation myth in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
this myth as well as MANY other stories and historical documents tell stories of a great flood, passed down by word through generations.
unfortunately, the Sumerian civilization peeked in Mesopotamia from roughly 6500 to 5000 years ago. this civilization fell roughly 1000 years before the first story of judeo-christian bible would supposedly take place, the story of God giving the covenant to Abraham....
therefor if you take everything literally, Noah being a Jew, would have to come after this time period. yet, almost all civilizations and religions speak of a great flooding with the same themes.
Recently there has been evidence that the black sea may have been the place where the great flood happened. It lies below sea level and is seperated from the mediterranean sea by a slim mountainous region. The recent evidence depicts that the Black Sea was much small several thousand years ago, and when a catastrophic earth moving event took place, caused some of the mountains to collapse, releasing the mediterranian onto the flood plains of the area, like a tub of water losing a portion of a wall. The dawn of civilized man lived in that region and told generations upon generations of this terrible event.
Huh? The Bible starts at the beginning. Why do you think it starts with Abraham?