Fairly New to Saltwater, and Having Problems Right and Left!

[feather]

First of all, hello to everyone My name is Heather.
I have a 28g Nano-Cube HQI tank that I love dearly, but it's not high on my list right now! I've had problems right and left. I'm sorry to start my posts this way, but I desperately need a little insight and help from anyone that can provide it!
So this tank was started roughly 8 months ago. Was going pretty well at first...having issues with a few fish living, but nothing serious. I was able to keep clowns, blue damsels, yellow tangs, black damsels, and I believe gramma. No problems - levels were great, fish were all thriving. Then it came time to change the water out. I did as I was told and changed 1/3 of the water, checking the levels afterward to be sure they were fine, only to wake up and find all 9 or 10 fish dead floating. I went to the local fish store to ask questions. Their only answer was, "the water in this area has been known to contain some bad things...maybe that was it." So...I'm out a whole tank of fish.
I recently moved and decided to start the tank over. I got it going, and let it sit for weeks with no fish, checking levels weekly. I was having a big problem with algae, so the fish store offered me 3 turbos to help eat it all up, and told me to lessen my light hours to 6 hours a day. That taken care of, I ended up getting 2 clownfish, a pair I believe, and let them inhabit the tank for about a month and a half. No problems, other than the bullying of the female to the male (she rushes him and he vibrates sideways). Told the fish store, they said no big deal. I ended up then getting 2 blue damsels. They were shy at first, but came around, and were fine other than the occasional bullying from the clownfish. Last week I got another gramma, as I was told they do NOT get bullied and can hold their own. At the same time, the owner of the store gave me some complementary corals (of the weed variety, he's overrun), and said they were "unkillable". Excited, I came home, acclimated the fish and corals, and set them free. Sure enough, gramma AND both corals dead in 3 days. The gramma hid the whole time, couldn't even see her until she was floating. The corals just slowly fell apart. Now all of a sudden, my blue damsels are hiding, one looking labored (gasping with his mouth). They were fine for weeks! I checked levels this morning and everything is just fine. Temp in the tank is 75-80*F. Both pumps circulating air. Enough live rock. No predatory crabs or anything.
What I don't understand is that I have the same setup as one in our fish store, and theirs is FULL of corals and fish, and everything. They have a different lighting setup, but that's all I can think of. I am SO very frustrating, I've been over it and over it in my head, as well as with the various store employees and can find NOTHING I'm doing wrong. If anyone has any insight, it would be MUCH appreciated. Sorry for the length of this post...I just had to tell every detail.
Thanks in advance!

 

[nikesb]

i have some questions for you first
1) what is the source of your water? tap, ro, ro/di, distilled?
2) what kind of coral was it?
3) can you post a pic of your tank? it may help
A couple of things that stoof out to me was having 5 fish in such a small tank. This is a HUGE bioload. you should've stuck with the two clownfish and left it at that. I wouldnt advise more than 3 fish in a NC28. You may have added too many fish in such a short time period. Your system needs time to build up the bacteria to sustain the fish.

 

[feather]

Thanks for the reply I'll answer your questions...
1) It was tap water, we were told that was fine as long as it was treated correctly...?
2) I apologize, I don't know the exact name of the coral. I know they were both purple, and the manager of the store (very smart man, in the saltwater business for years) assured me they were VERY hardy. He had a large patch of them growing in his Nano 28g in the store.
3) I posted a pic of the tank in the top thread of this section, but I will also attach it to this thread.
I was not aware that so few fish were better. I had the 8 or so in there for months before the problem with the water. The Nano 28g in the fish store has at least 6 fish in there as well. That's definitely news to me!
Also, what exactly is SuperBac? And would it help my system? I know the store uses it and they have dozens of BEAUTIFUL setups. It was recommended to me, but never explained.
I know I ask a ton of questions, but I know there's no better place than a board filled with people that have been doing this for years!

 

[nikesb]

alright. using tap water has always been a solid NO from me. There are people that do it and get away with it but its absolutely not the right thing to do. Treating water for salt water does not work in this hobby. You have to filter out the particles in the water using a reverse osmosis/deionization (RO/DI) system. If you do not want to purchase some, your store should sell RO/DI.
You should research more on your own rather than doing what your store does. Many stores provide wrong info just to make a sale. 8 fish is way way way way too much in a small tank. One of the many keys to nano tanks is to keeping the correct bio load. Your store may keep 6 fishes, but this is highly unadviseable
Do not use superbac, these "shortcuts" dont work the way they should. It is a denitrifying additive that removes nitirites but you should have the bacteria in your tank that shouldve built itself up after correctly cycling itself. the only thing you should be running in your tank is some carbon or chemi-pure elite in one of your back chambers.

 

[feather]

Ok, thanks for the advice.
I do research on my own...but as you well know, for 10 saltwater hobbyists, there are 10 ways of doing things. I don't take what the store says as scripture...but it's hard to deny they know what they are doing when they have such success, you know? Plus, the store employees I know well, and trust. It's a massive store, with at least 60 setups, including a huge one in the back with young blacktip sharks and rays.
I do have carbon in the back chamber.
So why, after cycling the tank for months, not overloading it with fish (at this time I had just the clowns) would I lose any and all coral, and an anenome that I try to place in there? I understand keeping a correct bio load...and for me that doesn't seem to be a problem as anything other than damsels that I add to my tank dies within 3 days. It's just very frustrating, and I honestly don't know what to do to help it.

 

[nikesb]

your tap water may have something in it that you dont know about which is why you should start switching to ro/di. its true that there are tons of ways to do things, but many of the people on this forum will provide similar responses to mine. Anemones require a well established aquarium, and it takes at least 6 months to develop all the bacteria needed to sustain that. A fish store may not always seem successful because you only see what they want you to see. Of course they're not going to show the bad stuff to customers. Also as tanks mature, they can start to maintain themselves, so you cannot apply what they do to their tanks to your own. Ive never had to use supplements to help my tank except for dosing stuff that my corals deplete.

 

[feather]

Ok, thanks much for the advice
In the time since I put this thread up, one of the blue damsels has died, and the other is dying as I type This is very frustrating indeed, but at this point, the only thing able to live in the tank seems to be the clowns that have been in there from the get-go, so I will stick with those for a few months, and then see where I'm at I guess. I just am at a loss as to why all of a sudden? These fish have been fine in there for a month, then suddenly they are gone.

 

[nikesb]

there may be something toxic in the water. are you using clean buckets to make water? it could be a number of things. describe to us your regiment of husbandry for your tank

 

[feather]

Yes, of course clean buckets, I make sure of that. How could I find out if there is something toxic in the water? As far as husbandry goes, I've been letting the tank pretty much take care of itself. I do scrub a little of the algae off with a sleeve/sock looking scrubber on parts of the glass that the Mag-Float cannot reach, but that's it. Nothing goes into the tank at all.
Also, what is the easiest, least invasive way to clean muck off the sand? The turbo snails definitely made a mess when they were taking care of the algae!

 

[flower]

Welcome to the site!
Damsels are mean little fish, in a sad way it really is a blessing they didn't make it. They grow up and kill everything else in the tank, and bite your hand drawing blood. I would not replace them even if you buy a 100g tank.
Wal-Mart sells RO water pretty cheap say $0.37 a gallon. Most fish stores charge around a $1.00. Never use tap water, it will catch up to you in the end.
In a 28g tank the two clowns, and later a royal gramma or some other dottyback would be fine.
Do you run a skimmer? That will help remove pollutants you can't even test for. The fish gasping for air sounds like an ammonia spike...you added too many fish too fast. You may have gotten away with it at first, but like I said the water quality will catch up with you or I should say, your fish.
There is some really helpful info at the beginning of the new hobby section...read up from there and learn a few things that can help you reset your tank to keep it going.
You are right on the edge, with a little more info under your belt your tank will take off and be beautiful. So stick around and keep us posted as you go.
P.S.
NikesSB offers some good advice.

 

[tracher]

you should listen to the people on this sight i did and then i learned how the people at my fish store tryed to decieve my by trying to sell me damsels and other fish 3 days after i set up the tank. my mom says that i should listen to the workers at the store but at one of the fish stores i know much more about this hobby then them on one ocasion they were even asking me questions. also i used to treat tap water but people here told me to get an rodi

 

[feather]

Thanks!
Yah, I've always been a fan of clowns, so I can't say that ALL damsels are mean little things, but the other varieties I've had are not the sweetest fish!
So would you suggest doing a partial replacement of say, 10 gallons with RO water at this point? I just checked and indeed my ammonia level is up to .25...so thank you for that. Oh, and I do have a protein skimmer.
This hobby started out as my husband's. He's a police officer so you can imagine how busy he is! This has turned into my project, and being as stubborn as I am...I WILL make this work haha.
I have been reading at the beginning of this thread, and there is a lot of helpful information there. Thanks much!!

 

[feather]

Tracher...I do still stand by my fish store, as they have never TRIED to sell me anything, and in many cases GIVEN me things to try to help. But I also understand that it's a very busy store, and they can't hold everyone's hand that comes in with problems. So I turned to this site, and thank goodness everyone has been very helpful so far. Of course I'll listen to suggestions. I'd be ridiculous not to!

 

[tracher]

yea im not saying that yours is bad im just warning u that some are bad... at the one im talking to some workers will tell me the truth but others will lie

 

[feather]

Definitely I've been in a couple others around here that I couldn't even believe they were still in business, let alone their knowledge was definitely in question. One tried to sell me an Oriental Sweetlips the first time I went in there, knowing I only have a NC28. I just smiled, told them to have a nice day, and left. I've made friends with the manager and a few employees at the one here I like, so I'm comfortable with them and their knowledge. I just wish I could have someone more knowledgeable than myself come take a look and tell me what I need to fix/do!

 

[feather]

I figured I would update everyone, and see if I can't possibly get some more information from people on here
I did a 5 gallon partial water replacement (with RO water, per everyone's advice) yesterday, and today ran all the level tests. To my knowledge, everything came back normal besides the KH...is there a way that I can bring that down, without hurting any of the other levels?
pH - 8.4
KH -16 dkH
Calcium - 450 ppm
MG - 1250
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Specific Gravity - 1.025
Temperature - 80*F
At this point there are only 2 clownfish, a hermit crab, and 3 turbo snails in the aquarium. As it sits it is 3 months old. Would my best bet be to give it another few months, let it balance itself all out, then look at adding corals and a couple more fish (obviously not all at once). Thanks for all the help so far guys...this is a really tough hobby to wrap your head around, with so much information out there. Too much to take in all at once, especially when this project has kind of been thrown in my lap!

 

[posiden]

Hello,
IMO i would hang tight on any additions. You just lost two fish two days ago. "IF" I were in your place I would wait a month before adding any new fish to the tank. I myself would let it stand with the two clowns. That's me tho.
You seem to know that clowns are in the damsel family, that being the case. Things would have been tough territory wise with two clowns and two damsels in a small tank. Your fish load before was way too big for that tank. Problems do take time to show, and some show very fast. Your rock can only take so much abuse. One thing to remember about the tanks at the LFS, is that they sell the fish out of the tanks. They aren't stocked that way all the time. Their bio load changes big time. As mentioned earlier in the thread about not comparing your tank to theirs. That's good info. No two tanks will run the same. That's why knowing about this hobby will save you sooo much time and money.
Do you export nutrients any other way other then the skimmer?
How often do you top off the tanks water?
Are you adding anything daily to the tank now?
What salt are you using?
One last thought...........I would highly recommend a QT tank. ANY new additions should go through a QT process before they get placed into the main tank. You will be EXTREMELY glad you took the time and effort to do it this way. Even simple purchases such as LR can be watched and cleaned of any unwanted pests before it goes into you display tank.
Stay dry and Good Luck.

 

[bmac_2727]

Well first things first. Welcome to the forum. I know exactly what you are going through. I have wasted hundreds of dollars rushing into this hobby and just buying whatever I wanted when I wanted it and paid the price for it time and time again. You seem to be learning really quick but this is the best advice I can give you. Starting with the water. Never use the tap water. Tap water contains alot of hard metals such as copper which can be fatal to alot of corals. Also it contains phosphates which will make your algea horrible. Test your ph daily. I test my nitrates and calcium about every three days but the nitrites, ammonia, and ph gets it daily because spikes in those can happen at anytime so they are the most important. I think a good rule of thumb is allow yourself 1" of fish for every 2 gallons of water. Keeping in mind that a 28 gallon tank doesn't have 28 gallons of water. After the LR and sand displace the water I would say you only have about 20 gallons of water in that tank. I am really tight when it comes to money but I also believe that you get what you pay for. Nothing of quality is cheap in this hobby so save if you have to but buying cheap skimmers and test kits and salt and pumps and lights is only going to cost your more in the long run when you have to replace your livestock becuase the cheap accessories broke. Do your research on everything you buy before you buy it. I used to mix damsels with triggers becuase I thought they were cool vs what was right. I hope this helps you and don't get too bothered about mistakes becuase I bet even the best tanks and the most experienced reefers run into snags now and then and i too find myself scratching my head at times going WTF???? Just remember patience and time are the best remedies becuase after all you are being mother nature buy building an ocean in a tank. Doesn't happen over night. Good luck to you and I hope I could help you.