first casualty, please help!

[aelene]

Well, my clownfish died today and I need help understanding why. He didn't look sick. The only thing I had noticed was that he was breathing a little heavy and he hadn't really eaten (in my sight) in the last few days. He was still active and swimming around the tank. He was purchased on 7/30 after my tank had been setup with LR and LS for a week. All the levels have been correct since I set it up. (Worst reading was nitrates at 20ppm for a few days) Today when I had the water tested the levels were:
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 10ppm
SG - 1.027
The SG is too high, could that be what killed him? Would that cause labored breathing in fish? I had been trying to raise it slowly over time to get it in the range needed for coral/inverts etc but I went over since the hydrometer I had was only reading 1.022 (I got a refractometer today to fix that problem.)
Here is my biggest issue - everything had been doing well (the clown didn't look sick) so after the water tested good today I brought home a lawnmower blenny to put in the tank.... only to find my newly departed Norman who was fine when I left for the fish store. So now I'm afraid to add the blenny.
I changed out a good portion of the water and the SG is now reading at 1.020 with the refractometer. I also bought a new lighting system today (actinic) so this should help everything some right?
A.) How will the blenny react to this? Should he be ok being added to the main tank since everything seems ok? I have a QT tank I just finished setting up today with new live rock (mostly cured) and the SG in that tank is 1.023 with all other readings matching what is listed above. If I need too (and if he'll be ok) I can put him in there.
B.) Will my water going from 1.027 to 1.022 today hurt my cleaner shrimp and hermit crabs?
I don't want anymore deaths... someone help

 

[hot883]

Inverts need a higher sg. somewhere around 1.025-27 I hear. Going from 27-to 22 will definately have an impact. You cannot raise or lower that quickly for any reason. Sorry for your loss, but IMO, there maybe more to come. IMHO also the tank is still to young for fish.

 

[speg]

How quickly did your salinity go up to 1.027? It is pretty high.. and its possible that killed your fish.. would explain why he was breathing heavy. Higher salinities make it harder for fish to breathe.. but if he was slowly acclimated to that high of salinity he should be... ok..
Fish can be introduced to lower salinity at a faster rate than introduced to high salinity.
Also you said you reduced it from 1.027-1.022.. thats bad news.. you REALLY dont wanna do that. Such a huge drop is sure to effect inverts, and cleaner shrimp are very sensitive to changes in salinity. Also inverts do best with at least 1.023-1.024.
You also mentioned that your tank had only had sand/rock in it for one week before you added the clown? Did you cycle your tank with no sand or rock in it... or what? This confuses me... a clown shoulda really been a fish to add at least a little later down the line.

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by hot883
Inverts need a higher sg. somewhere around 1.025-27 I hear. Going from 27-to 22 will definately have an impact. You cannot raise or lower that quickly for any reason. Sorry for your loss, but IMO, there maybe more to come. IMHO also the tank is still to young for fish.
The tank has been setup since 7/22 or so.. how much longer should I be waiting?
Would the blenny be affected by the SG changed, since he wasn't in the tank before hand? Technically he's just going to be starting out at 1.020 right? I'm not sure what to do with him now.. everything is closed so I can't just take him back, plus he's acclimating atm :notsure:
I had one crab die a couple of days ago... but I had just added 5 the day or so before so I figured it was a fluke. I've turned myself into a murderer tonight... ugh this is going to suck.

 

[pbienkiewi]

your tank is still a baby. What do you have in it
How many crabs, snails, ETC ?
how many pounds of LR ?
how deep of a sand bed ?
Filtration ?
Pumps ? dead spots in the tank ?

 

[mikeyjer]

How big is your tank anyway??? You add way too much stuff at sametime can harm your inhabitants. That's probably what killed your fish plus the quick salinity drop...sorry about your loss...

 

[speg]

First of all.. dont panic.. mistakes were made.. every single person on this forum has made mistakes and will make more mistakes somewhere down the line that'll end of costing them livestock or $$ they wouldnt normally have to spend.. just try to learn up as much as possible to prevent this stuff from happening again.
Secondly, if the blenny is being introduced to 1.020 then he wont see any effects of the 1.027 that you did have... though if things are dying in your tank and creating ammonia and the biological filter cannot keep up with it.. it may be a problem.. retest your ammonia/nitrites to make sure they are still at zero.. if you already havent.
Secondly... try not to increase/decrease the salinity so much in such a drastically short amount of time.. if you wanna try to raise salinity slowly then let the water evaporate and slowly add saltwater to fill your tank instead of fresh topoff water.. if you're trying to lower salinity then add extra fresh topoff water during your normal topoffs... slow is the key to success in this hobby.. remember that.
So your tank cycled in 3 weeks? Well... thats pretty darn fast if its truely cycled... you should have your water tested by your LFS to make sure your testkits are accurate... try adding a damsel or chromis and see how it does for a couple weeks at least.. if he survives with no problems.. then add a clown or something. I think you rushed too fast to throw stuff in your tank in my opinion.. slow it down a little =c)

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by Speg
How quickly did your salinity go up to 1.027? It is pretty high.. and its possible that killed your fish.. would explain why he was breathing heavy. Higher salinities make it harder for fish to breathe.. but if he was slowly acclimated to that high of salinity he should be... ok..
On 8/6 my SG read as 1.021 (with a hydrometer) so I guess it went that high within 7 days. I haven't done any *large* water changes so I wouldn't think it could have been too fast of a period for the levels to get that high. Today is the first time it's been read with a refractometer.
Originally Posted by Speg
Fish can be introduced to lower salinity at a faster rate than introduced to high salinity.
Also you said you reduced it from 1.027-1.022.. thats bad news.. you REALLY dont wanna do that. Such a huge drop is sure to effect inverts, and cleaner shrimp are very sensitive to changes in salinity. Also inverts do best with at least 1.023-1.024.
Is there a way to repair what I have done now in terms of the SG?
Originally Posted by Speg
You also mentioned that your tank had only had sand/rock in it for one week before you added the clown? Did you cycle your tank with no sand or rock in it... or what? This confuses me... a clown shoulda really been a fish to add at least a little later down the line.
I "cycled" my tank with LS and LR. But if you ask me, the levels never spiked. They just always stayed good. After a week of that I added the clownfish. This was all during the time frame that I was just beginning to read up on this site, so I didn't know better at the time. I really don't want to be the cause of death for anything else. I'm hoping there is a way to ensure that I can try to salvage whatever else is in the tank.

Any and all advice is appreciated..

 

[speg]

Never spiked? You may not even be cycled then.. if you got liverock that is from a LFS and is cured or taken right outta the ocean and live sand that is the same.. there is no die off to cause a ammonia spike to start the cycle.. If you really havent cycled.. now is the time.. take back any live animals you have and cycle that bad boy!
As far as ways to repair what you've done to your SG... whats done is done.. now all you can do is try and keep it at a stable level.. you have a refractometer now right? Half the battle is over! Use it daily to make sure your salinity is where you intend on keeping it... depending on what kinda system you have you are gonna want it at different levels.. you mentioned a cleaner shrimp so right away with that in mind i'd keep it at least at 1.024... bring it up to it slowly over a period of a couple days.. you're at 1.022 now.. so tomorrow when you would normally fill the tank with fresh topoff water.. use new saltwater to make up for evaporation.. then test salinity... and repeat untill you're at 1.024.. then when its there... use freshwater to topoff again instead of the salt.

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by pbienkiewi
your tank is still a baby. What do you have in it
How many crabs, snails, ETC ?
how many pounds of LR ?
how deep of a sand bed ?
Filtration ?
Pumps ? dead spots in the tank ?
Inhabitants:
10 Hermit Crabs
1 Cleaner Shrimp
3 Astrea snails
1 Lawnmower blenny that is currently acclimating (drip method)
Tank Setup:
40g hex tank
32 lbs of live rock and 8 lbs of base rock (12 lbs of LR and 8 lbs of base rock were just added last week)
60lbs of LS
Hanging filter, with a biopak (bakpak) protein skimmer. Also have a powerhead pumping 276 gph (two directions)
This whole entire time, I have not only been testing water levels at home but I also test the water once a week at the LFS. Their readings *always* come out better than mine. Always 8.2 PH, Nitrates either 10ppm or less (almost always 0) and all other factors at 0. They tell me my water is fantastic and that I shouldn't even have to be doing water changes yet. I've been paying really close attention to the clownfish the last few days since I hadnt seen him eat.. I guess I was just caught off guard because everything seemed ok.

 

[aelene]

Here is what I have:
The main tank, the QT tank, and the innocent bystander. I am going to test the water levels again on both tanks and post the readings.

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by Speg
Never spiked? You may not even be cycled then.. if you got liverock that is from a LFS and is cured or taken right outta the ocean and live sand that is the same.. there is no die off to cause a ammonia spike to start the cycle.. If you really havent cycled.. now is the time.. take back any live animals you have and cycle that bad boy!
Do you think I could get away with housing everyone in the QT tank in the mean time and just let the main tank start cycling?

 

[speg]

Is the QT tank cycled? If so then yes.. if not you're gonna need to run carbon in there to try your best to keep all the ammonia OUT of the system.
Your main tank looks pretty nice =c)
By the way.. once you get out of this mess... you should remove the rocks/sand from your QT tank if you ever plan on treating any medications in there... or if any fish have ich you dont wanna be having the rocks and sand in there at all.

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by Speg
Is the QT tank cycled? If so then yes.. if not you're gonna need to run carbon in there to try your best to keep all the ammonia OUT of the system.
Your main tank looks pretty nice =c)
By the way.. once you get out of this mess... you should remove the rocks/sand from your QT tank if you ever plan on treating any medications in there... or if any fish have ich you dont wanna be having the rocks and sand in there at all.
Of course not, I wouldn't be so lucky. I just finished setting up the QT tank today.

All the water in it is from the main tank (along with a little SW mix that was new) and the LR is brand new I just got it today.
What if I let the QT tank cycle first, then move the fish/crew over so I can cycle the main tank? Would that be too hard on them?
BTW - the rock will come out if there is ever a sick fish. For now the QT is a introduction tank so I didn't want it to be bare and then stress out any new fish.

 

[speg]

Heres the problem with that.. if you let the QT cycle first.. then the main tank which still has the fish... is then being cycled as well... and most likely the algae blenny will end up dying due to insufficient bacteria to consume the ammonia/nitrites. Its best if you can remove everything besides the cleanup crew and cycle the tank..
By the way cycling a tank usually takes 4-6 weeks... its not by any means 'fast'... =c( IMO its the hardest thing a saltwater hobbiest has to deal with.

 

[aelene]

Originally Posted by Speg
Heres the problem with that.. if you let the QT cycle first.. then the main tank which still has the fish... is then being cycled as well... and most likely the algae blenny will end up dying due to insufficient bacteria to consume the ammonia/nitrites. Its best if you can remove everything besides the cleanup crew and cycle the tank..
By the way cycling a tank usually takes 4-6 weeks... its not by any means 'fast'... =c( IMO its the hardest thing a saltwater hobbiest has to deal with.
But cycling means that the levels will spike up (ex: ammonia) and that's not happening in my tank.. so I have a hard time understanding this. From what I've read on this site, a tank can go uncycled if all the levels stay as they should, you just won't know what the true bioload of the tank can/will be. Is this correct or no?
Also - the pic that I posted of my main tank.. that is a new lighting system that I just bought today. It is a Dual Satellite 24" 65W 2-Lamp 24 Hour Lighting System.
- There is a dawn and a dusk light. The dusk (moon) light only lights up one bulb when I turn it on. Shouldn't both light up? Maybe I need to return this one...
- Can I leave the dusk (moon) light on when the blenny hits the tank for the first time, or should it stay off for his acclimation period?

 

[speg]

Cycling means you start a ammonia spike and slowly over a period of a few weeks bacteria thrives on your rocks/sand/bioballs/etc to consume the ammonia and turn it into less harmful nitrites.. then the nitrites are consumed by other bacteria and turned into nitrates... that is a cycle.. if you didnt have a ammonia spike at one point then you did not cycle. Get other peoples opinion on this.. but to me that sounds like what the main problem was... the high salinity of course wasnt a big help either.
With your lights.. you explain them as 'dusk' lights 'moon' lights.. are those lights small little 1 watt bulbs? or are they as big as the other lights? If they are big they are probably your actinic bulbs. If they are very small bulbs, possibly 1 watt bulbs, then they are your moonlights... use these throughout the night to resemble the moon.
If the lights are 'moon lights'.. then I would actually recommend they come on while acclimating a fish to your tank.. if they are the actinic normal lights.. then no turn them off.
Regardless if one of the lights are not coming on at all.. there is a problem and you should take the system back.

 

[aelene]

It's a four lamp system, all are the same size. 2 are dual dayligh and 2 are dual actinic...

 

[littleliza]

I'm gonna get some really angry thoughts sent my way for this, but when I started my tank I basically put everything in all at once... including the tap water that I had just mixed with sea salt in a bucket just prior to dumping it in. Then then next day I added a yellow tang, 2 clowns, a blue damsel, a three stripe damsel, and a domino damsel, a yellow watchman goby, plus 60 lbs. LS and no LR. Today (over a year later) all are still with me and seem healthy and happy with good appetities except the domino damsel, but he lasted quite a few months (I personally think he stressed himself out trying to control my 44 gallon corner tank). My point being, don't give up hope. Some of those critters will survive the harshest conditions. I recommend doing things by the book, but if you make a mistake there's still a chance things won't fall apart, even if by all accounts they should.

 

[speg]

Originally Posted by Littleliza
I'm gonna get some really angry thoughts sent my way for this, but when I started my tank I basically put everything in all at once... including the tap water that I had just mixed with sea salt in a bucket just prior to dumping it in. Then then next day I added a yellow tang, 2 clowns, a blue damsel, a three stripe damsel, and a domino damsel, a yellow watchman goby, plus 60 lbs. LS and no LR. Today (over a year later) all are still with me and seem healthy and happy with good appetities except the domino damsel, but he lasted quite a few months (I personally think he stressed himself out trying to control my 44 gallon corner tank). My point being, don't give up hope. Some of those critters will survive the harshest conditions. I recommend doing things by the book, but if you make a mistake there's still a chance things won't fall apart, even if by all accounts they should.

You were running a carbon filter right?