First time home buyers credit.

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/3168988
In some ways I can see this, but they still need to get the $8K loaned to them first. This could mean the difference between a traditional 80/20 30 year fixed and an FHA or over leveraged variable loan.
For other people, it gets them off the fence. My wife and I were basically making the equivalent of a house payment for our apartment's rent, so it got us into the market faster. Thank goodness owning farm land doesn't disqualify you for a homebuyer credit

Yeah, the first time deal has generally always been you couldn't have owned your primary residence within the previous 3 years. Not really an accurate term for the programs.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3168884
I don't follow the logic here. Even if it wasn't a refundable credit you still have someone paying 8 grand less than their fair share of taxes.
I don't like this argument. It is kind of a I get screwed so you should get screwed too, it is only fair...
Originally Posted by Beth

http:///forum/post/3168880
Are you getting more than you paid? My understanding is, you can qualify for up to 8k, but if your tax was only 5k, then you are going to get 5k credit.
This is incorrect. Say you paid 5k in taxes. You'd get an 8k credit. In their books it would look like you paid in 13k in taxes. So you'd get back more than what you paid in. Hence redistribution, and subsidy...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by uneverno
http:///forum/post/3169054
Yes.
The short answer is it's good for the economy that people spend money now.
The problem w/ a consumer based economy that I rarely hear being addressed (and Capitalist, Socialist, Communist and Fascist are all
consumer based) is that w/ a relatively stable population, it becomes increasingly difficult to sell more products that existing consumers already have. At some point, market saturation gets reached. This is true regardless of market sector. (For example, if the population isn't growing, Safeway can only sell so much food. If they can't sell more, they become a bad investment, which leads to investor flight, which leads to segment stagnation or regression, which affects other market sectors as people lose their jobs...)
Stimulating the economy is a temporary fix whether accomplished by tax break or incentive. Eventually the chickens come home to roost. Not only because the money has to be paid back, but also (and in no small part) because Government does not adjust its spending to account for the revenue losses they themselves legislate.
The question therefore becomes one, not of economic stimulus, but of sustaining growth in a situation where it's almost impossible to do so. Of the primary consumer economies, Europe, the US and Japan, ours is the only one w/ a positive birth rate, and barely so at that.
In the short term, the stimulus/break has potential to work. When people spend money other people remain employed. The other short term solution is to encourage immigration (legal or not is immaterial) because more people means more consumers.
In the medium term, the gov't would be better off creating stimuli to have children than stimulating current consumers to buy crap we don't need. 'Course eventually, the planet being finite, that will run its course.
In the long term, they'd be better off employing people to build the infrastructure of 3rd world countries in order to expand the existing consumer base there. That will also eventually fail. As those consumers get richer, (meaning their 1st world employers are paying them more) the cost of products to our own citizens also increases and in the end, the market still reaches saturation.
The economy is analogous to an aquarium. While you're building it, you can spend a ton of money 'cuz it's empty. Once it's full though, you can only maintain it. It cannot be further built.
Your analogy works, if you take out the wildcard of economics, which is technology.
You're also overlooking something VERY VERY important, by implying we as a group of people can reach a point of satiation on a macro level.
You can reach it for an industry, or a product. You will have a maturity that happens in a market, perfect example would be cell phones (they don't have a lot of growth for a first time buyer of cell phones). But you'll always have new technology, (iPhone) or innovation (data services) that allow something to continue growing. And eventually something new and improved will take its spot. (see what happened with pay phones or land line phones)
I do find it ironic, mildly humorous. Suggesting something that has been universally villified. (remember the brits, and east india trading company?)
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3169177
I don't like this argument. It is kind of a I get screwed so you should get screwed too, it is only fair...
If everyone gets a credit for buying a house I'd be on board. I am just fed up with seeing my tax burden increased to give money to people who are able to fend for themselves. If they want a house they need to make better choices and work harder to earn it. Thats what I did.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Just realized that post doesn't make sense. What I mean is I am sick and tired of having politicians take my money to buy votes. If they want to change the tax system so there is a home buyers credit everyone gets I would be fine with that.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3169182
If everyone gets a credit for buying a house I'd be on board. I am just fed up with seeing my tax burden increased to give money to people who are able to fend for themselves. If they want a house they need to make better choices and work harder to earn it. Thats what I did.
Not to play devils advocate, (ok well maybe a little) but if it is going to happen anyway? (I'm being a pesimist) I'd rather it go to someone who is going to use it well, vs say Wellfare Joe who trades his card for alcohol.
I agree with you. I just don't like the way you reach that conclusion. Because you can reach some very bad ones following that same line of logic. Hence why I feel it very important to draw the distiction between a tax cut. And a subsidy. Even though they try and blur the lines with it, by incorporating it in with your Tax return...
 

saltn00b

Active Member
hey -
i bought a house last year, closed in july 08. there are two programs as i understand it, if you bought the house in 08 you get a 7500 tax / interest free "loan" basically. if you bought it in 09 you get an 8000 gift. shortly after my 08 taxes were entered, i got a check cut to me for 7500. i have to pay 500 back every year.
 

kingsmith

Member
The entire tax system is set up so that those in the know and that have the capability can avoid taxable liability on many forms of income which are generally taxable for people like you or I because we don't have the means to pay a CPA to set up the structure and reporting of our income. There is a clear distiction between tax evasion and avoidance, fair no but what really is.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3169185
Not to play devils advocate, (ok well maybe a little) but if it is going to happen anyway? (I'm being a pesimist) I'd rather it go to someone who is going to use it well, vs say Wellfare Joe who trades his card for alcohol.
I agree with you. I just don't like the way you reach that conclusion. Because you can reach some very bad ones following that same line of logic. Hence why I feel it very important to draw the distiction between a tax cut. And a subsidy. Even though they try and blur the lines with it, by incorporating it in with your Tax return...
I think were we may be parting ways here is that I don't like "targeted" tax cuts. I believe in the flat tax idea, everyone gives up an equal percentage of what they earn, no write offs or loopholes.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3169293
I think were we may be parting ways here is that I don't like "targeted" tax cuts. I believe in the flat tax idea, everyone gives up an equal percentage of what they earn, no write offs or loopholes.
lol, well, that is a fairly tail.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3169296
lol, well, that is a fairly tail.
More of a dream but yeah, fat chance. The politicians have been using the tax code as a tool for getting contributions and votes for decades, I don't see them stopping any time soon
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3169318
More of a dream but yeah, fat chance. The politicians have been using the tax code as a tool for getting contributions and votes for decades, I don't see them stopping any time soon
But within the current system, I have no problem with a little tax break here and there.
There is a town near houston, (happens to be the 2nd fastest growing county in the USA right now as far as job growth) and they offered a medium range corporation a term property tax abatement. City of houston refused, with a bunch of people supporting the decision. Now, those 100 jobs with a mean wage around 95k are 45 miles outside of houston, and they lost the revenue from the increased property value, the sales tax on the income.
It is amazing what happens when people (and companies) get to keep more of their own money...
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3169352
But within the current system, I have no problem with a little tax break here and there.
There is a town near houston, (happens to be the 2nd fastest growing county in the USA right now as far as job growth) and they offered a medium range corporation a term property tax abatement. City of houston refused, with a bunch of people supporting the decision. Now, those 100 jobs with a mean wage around 95k are 45 miles outside of houston, and they lost the revenue from the increased property value, the sales tax on the income.
It is amazing what happens when people (and companies) get to keep more of their own money...
I have seen those same deals come back and bit cities in the butt to but I generally don't have a issue with that kind of break. It creates something.
 

sickboy

Active Member
With all this talk of tax rates, etc. I would just like to point out one of the things our tax structure does well especially when compared to a flat tax:
In times of economic downturn, as your income drops, you automatically get to keep a greater portion of your income. Its a built in "tax cut". It is meant to support a capitalist society as the marginal propensity to spend is highest in lower income brackets, and therefore lowering those tax rates maximizes consumption.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/3169428
With all this talk of tax rates, etc. I would just like to point out one of the things our tax structure does well especially when compared to a flat tax:
In times of economic downturn, as your income drops, you automatically get to keep a greater portion of your income. Its a built in "tax cut". It is meant to support a capitalist society as the marginal propensity to spend is highest in lower income brackets, and therefore lowering those tax rates maximizes consumption.
Not a huge difference between the two systems in that respect because the higher tax rate only applies to that portion of your income above the threshold that puts you into the higher bracket.
 

sickboy

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3169432
Not a huge difference between the two systems in that respect because the higher tax rate only applies to that portion of your income above the threshold that puts you into the higher bracket.
Which is why it maximizes consumption. With a flat tax more savings would ensue in the upper income brackets, taking money out of the economy. Savings is smart on the personal level, not on the economic level.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/3169521
Which is why it maximizes consumption. With a flat tax more savings would ensue in the upper income brackets, taking money out of the economy. Savings is smart on the personal level, not on the economic level.
That isn't true. If there is no saving, there is no investment. (unless the fed is printing billions and loaning it for free)
Think about it, you stick your money in the bank. Or buy securities, CD's or whatever. The bank in turn lends it. If we can't get capital for what business we are starting running etc. That is truly bad for the economy. Not some Joe blow, blowing his money on an iPhone.
btw can anyone say which came first, the chicken or the egg?
 

uneverno

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/3169181
Your analogy works, if you take out the wildcard of economics, which is technology.
I don't follow your point at all. The pseudo-science of Economics couldn't exist w/o technology. Technology is not a wild card, it's the very basis of the discipline. If it weren't for the domestication of animals and the invention of plowing tools, we'd still be hunter/gatherers, like our Great Ape relatives.
You're also overlooking something VERY VERY important, by implying we as a group of people can reach a point of satiation on a macro level.
I beg to differ. You're overlooking the VERY VERY important fact that the population continues to grow, but the space to house it (i.e. the planet) isn't. We not only can
, but mathematically we most assuredly will
, reach saturation (as opposed to satiation - there's a huge difference between the two.)
Technology isn't the issue - it has the potential to be infinite. However, without sufficient RESOURCES - food, fuel and water - technology is irrelevant.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by sickboy
http:///forum/post/3169521
Which is why it maximizes consumption. With a flat tax more savings would ensue in the upper income brackets, taking money out of the economy. Savings is smart on the personal level, not on the economic level.
A flat tax would eliminate deductions that tend to favor those in the upper brackets. Most of the plans I have seen places a floor under which income isn't taxable so it is those at the lower end that gain the biggest savings. The only real losers would be politicians and H$R Block and the makers of Turdo Tax
 
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