First time sump/refugium

ilovemytank

Member
I like your design. Its very similiar to mine ( 125 DT as well ). I used to run mine on canisters, then added a sump and after awhile I wanted a refugium. I really didn't have any knowledge of repairing or plumbing anything when It was time. I added the refugium and tried to use mag 7's to pump between the tanks, I split my two drain pipes and put returns in both of them and a bunch of other stupid ideas that I thought would work. There are serious problems with all the ways I tried it. Then some of the wonderfull experts on this site gave me advice that I was scared to try. ( Only because it including drilling the two tanks together. I bought the drill bits made the plans and the rest is history, It works great and I have no problemsand owe big thank you s to several members.Just take a look at mine design and ask me about it because it works smooth.
 

robertmathern

Active Member
Originally Posted by Ilovemytank
http:///forum/post/2920754
I like your design. Its very similiar to mine ( 125 DT as well ). I used to run mine on canisters, then added a sump and after awhile I wanted a refugium. I really didn't have any knowledge of repairing or plumbing anything when It was time. I added the refugium and tried to use mag 7's to pump between the tanks, I split my two drain pipes and put returns in both of them and a bunch of other stupid ideas that I thought would work. There are serious problems with all the ways I tried it. Then some of the wonderfull experts on this site gave me advice that I was scared to try. ( Only because it including drilling the two tanks together. I bought the drill bits made the plans and the rest is history, It works great and I have no problemsand owe big thank you s to several members.Just take a look at mine design and ask me about it because it works smooth.
Yep kind of like mine I used 2 wet drys that I gutted and drilled and connected togther. Only difference was wet drys are plastic
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by Ilovemytank
http:///forum/post/2920754
I like your design. Its very similiar to mine ( 125 DT as well ). I used to run mine on canisters, then added a sump and after awhile I wanted a refugium. I really didn't have any knowledge of repairing or plumbing anything when It was time. I added the refugium and tried to use mag 7's to pump between the tanks, I split my two drain pipes and put returns in both of them and a bunch of other stupid ideas that I thought would work. There are serious problems with all the ways I tried it. Then some of the wonderfull experts on this site gave me advice that I was scared to try. ( Only because it including drilling the two tanks together. I bought the drill bits made the plans and the rest is history, It works great and I have no problemsand owe big thank you s to several members.Just take a look at mine design and ask me about it because it works smooth.
Its very inspiring seeing that setup, and its refreshing to look at such nice DT
.....not like mine which hair algae is kicking me to the curb.
And yes I got questions. I'll make a list:
1. What size tanks did you use for the sump and refugium
2. How much water above the return pump do you need
3. What skimmer are you using
4. Are those glass tanks? And if so how did you drill?
 

truehle

Member
In the event of power outage or pump failure, how many gallons of water should I allow for in the sump/refugium system.
And that's assuming my anti-siphon holes worked.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
What I would do is start taking water out of my DT and putting it in 5 gallon buckets when the water level is below your siphon brakes that is how much you will back siphon into your sump. Add a few gallons for water in your lines and one gallon on top of that number for a safety factor. OH i must be getting old forgot to tell you i would add a one way valve in my return line to my DT as an added safty against back siphon
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921249
What I would do is start tanking water out of my DT and putting it in 5 gallon buckets when the water level is below your siphon brakes that is how much you will back siphon into your sump. Add a few gallons for water in your lines and one gallon on top of that number for a safety factor. OH i must be getting old forgot to tell you i would add a one way valve in my return line to my DT as an added safty against back siphon
Oh, so that could easily be 10g or so.
How far below desired water level would you put the anti-siphon holes?
 

robertmathern

Active Member
With the pump running and every thing on. You want to holes just below the water surface. no more that 1/2 inch. Remember the deeper the holes the more back syphon you get.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
10g seems a little high i am guessing less then five Any evaporation you get will show up in your sump so you can put your siphon brakes close to the surface cutting down on your total back flow and again the one way valves work great IMO as long as you exercise them frequently
 

truehle

Member
I did some mods based on everyone's feedback. I reduced the 29g fuge to a 20g because of height restrictions, and I added unions, ball valves, check valves, anti-siphon hole, filter sock, and baffles.
What are some thoughts or doing two overflows on each side of the tank versus doubling the overflow gph on a single overflow box?

Comment away!
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921352
I personally like the two overflow boxes
Would it be adequate then to have one overflow feeding the sump and the other feeding the refugium? Thought being that shouldn't the fuge have a lower flow rate?
 

robertmathern

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921352
I personally like the two overflow boxes
I agree thats what I have and trust me there not expensive. but the way you got it will work. I also think you have the return a little overkill but hey a little extra control never hurts. Just make sure you can disconect it if you need. And you have room to get your hands wet. Also you will want to either have a bubble trap on the pump side of the bulkhead or keep the water high enough not to create a waterfall effect in the return area when your water evaps you will lose quite a bit of water every day. The water fall effect will creat bubbles if they get sucked in the pump it will make micro bubbles in the DT.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/2921312
I did some mods based on everyone's feedback. I reduced the 29g fuge to a 20g because of height restrictions, and I added unions, ball valves, check valves, anti-siphon hole, filter sock, and baffles.
What are some thoughts or doing two overflows on each side of the tank versus doubling the overflow gph on a single overflow box?

Comment away!

I am a little confused (which is not a state that is hard for me to inhabit) you have a valve and PVC to the left of your return pump the PVC dumps back into your sump WHY. You also have a horizontal PVC pipe with a valve (the one with the T coming off your return pump) going from your sump to your refug again WHY.
You want good flow through your refug you will control the flow through your refug with the valve you have in the PVC pipe work feeding your sump. Add a valve to the long horizontal pvc that goes from your over flow box to your sump you want to be able to adjust the water flow to the sump and refug indepentenly the more control you have the more you can tweek your flow
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921397
I am a little confused (which is not a state that is hard for me to inhabit) you have a valve and PVC to the left of your return pump the PVC dumps back into your sump WHY. You also have a horizontal PVC pipe with a valve (the one with the T coming off your return pump) going from your sump to your refug again WHY.
You want good flow through your refug you will control the flow through your refug with the valve you have in the PVC pipe work feeding your sump. Add a valve to the long horizontal pvc that goes from your over flow box to your sump you want to be able to adjust the water flow to the sump and refug indepentenly the more control you have the more you can tweek your flow
I just just got carried away with control of the return. I tend to forget my process control education from college. Too many variables just leads to a hard if not impossible system to control.
I will take your advice. I just can't quite seem to get it in my head that as long as my overflow is greater than my return pump, I'll be ok.
 

ilovemytank

Member
Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/2921153
Its very inspiring seeing that setup, and its refreshing to look at such nice DT
.....not like mine which hair algae is kicking me to the curb.
And yes I got questions. I'll make a list:
1. What size tanks did you use for the sump and refugium
2. How much water above the return pump do you need
3. What skimmer are you using
4. Are those glass tanks? And if so how did you drill?
One of my tanks is a large wet/dry. I have measured the water capacity that I keep in it as 25 gallons with plenty of room for overflow. Since the pictures were taken I have replaced the bio balls with live rock rubble. The refugium is actually puchased as a refugium and holds 25 gallons as well. They are both acrylic. I have one drain pipe fed to the wet/dry to allow usage of the live rock rubble ( or bio balls ) and one going to the refugium. I took a 3" diamond cut drill bit ( cost $ 14 ) and it cut right through the tanks. I then used 2" bulkheads and PVC piping to connect the two. The idea is that they are connected at the maximum water hight I want the third chamber in the refugium. I used such a large bulkhead to be able to handle any amount of water flow. I have two return pumps in the sump and they are both 1200 gph. I also have in the sump two heaters, a phosphate reactor and the skimmer. The skimmer is an Octopus 200 and I absolutely love it. The best way I have found to determine how much room you can have in your sump is to have a low water level in it and then shut down your tank and allow everything that would overflow into it. See how much room you have, turn it all back on and add some more water to the sump. Slowly keep playing like this until you consistantly have a safe level of water when the power is off. I then have a water level marked on mine so I have a fill line. I'm very happy with my set up except for one thing. The evaporation of water decreases the sump water level. Then the skimmer doesn't work as good as the water level goes down. ( you set it to work with a certain water hight ) I am trying to figure out if I want to use a reserve tank with a water top off system or put a water drip system replinshing the water by a constant drip. I loose 3 to 4 gallons a day. Good luck.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Ok take a deep breath rework your drawing and lets take it from there. I don’t want this to be MY system but yours but two and hopefully many more heads are better then one
 

robertmathern

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921843
Ok take a deep breath rework your drawing and lets take it from there. I don’t want this to be MY system but yours but two and hopefully many more heads are better then one
I agree these are the guys that helped me build mine. Always remember keep it simple. Mine is great and I have built a couple now from the schooling these guys gave me.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by truehle
http:///forum/post/2921666
I just just got carried away with control of the return. I tend to forget my process control education from college. Too many variables just leads to a hard if not impossible system to control.
I will take your advice. I just can't quite seem to get it in my head that as long as my overflow is greater than my return pump, I'll be ok.

My friend I would like to address your concern over the idea that your overflow has to be greater then your GPH return.

Lets assume your tank is ready for the introduction of water. You start filling your tank and when the water level reaches your overflow box (which is nothing more then a fixed weir) you stop. This is the total volume of water in your DT. As you continue to add water it crests the weir and is gravity feed to your sump/refug. Were you to continue to add water you would fill and then overflow your sump/refug. (Not a good thing). Lets say we stop two inches above the suction side of your return pump. Now we start your pump the water level in you sump goes down as you charge your influent lines and add water to your DT. The level rises and you crest the weir completing the loop of water. To make sure your water level in your sump does not fall below the suction level of your pump you add water. You do not have a variable speed pump so you have a constant GPH, the water level in your sump remains constant. Now we want to adjust the level in your sump/refug. How do we do this? We add or remove water volume from the system. If we add water to your DT it will increase the speed at which the water enters your sump/refug the increased speed increases volume in your sump/refug the pump remaining at a constant is still putting back the same amount of water so the level in your sump rises untill you reach an equilibrium. Conversely if we want to lower the level of water in our sump we remove some water from our DT, less water over the weir slower speed to our Sump. Slower speed less volume, lower level again because our pump is at a constant rate of delivery. The overflow rate of your overflows box varies why the volume of water in your tank.
What I would do at this point is to turn off the pump. There is going to be a certain amount of back flow until your siphon brake mechanisms take effect. If you think you will overflow your sump, start the pump. Remove some water from your DT thus lowering the level in your sump. Turn off the pump again monitor the level of your sump with the back flow. Repeat until you get to a safe level. With your pump turned off. That is the total volume of your system. I would then put a mark on the sump at the water level. This mark will be your gauge for top offs. As you loose water through evaporation the level in your sump will lower. Add water to your tank until the level comes up to the mark in your sump and you are good to go.
I hope this makes some sense? If it does to anyone out there PLEASE explain it to me I think I have confused myself
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2922431
My friend I would like to address your concern over the idea that your overflow has to be greater then your GPH return.

I hope this makes some sense? If it does to anyone out there PLEASE explain it to me I think I have confused myself

You definitely made a lot of sense.
Its just not readily apparent to the novice(ME) that the overflow box has a variable flow rate. Would it would be safe to say that the flow rate is at its theoretical maximum if all things are working properly (assuming no DT pump to force flow to sump)?
So the thought is this, right? ....The flow rate of the overflow ranges from ZERO to the advertised flow rate. ZERO when there is insufficient water in the system, and maximized when things are properly flowing. That's why its important to buy and return pump that's rated for less flow rate than the overflow. Did I somehow just make sense there??? I think I need coffee.

The mistake I was making was thinking that both overflow and return pump always operated at their advertised volumetric flow rates, and to me that meant FLOOD (and angry wife).
Thank you for the explanation. Again, you all are an invaluable source of info!
 

truehle

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2921843
Ok take a deep breath rework your drawing and lets take it from there. I don’t want this to be MY system but yours but two and hopefully many more heads are better then one

Originally Posted by robertmathern

http:///forum/post/2922028
I agree these are the guys that helped me build mine. Always remember keep it simple. Mine is great and I have built a couple now from the schooling these guys gave me.
Ok, I revised the plan again. I think I'd like to stay with the single overflow design. But I took your advice on removing excess control on the return flow (now that I understand overflow vs. return much better), and I added a baffle on the pump side of the bulkhead to help prevent bubbles from entering return pump area.
Oh, and I added the ball valve and union on the horizontal supply line to the skimmer area.
 
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