Fish are dead again

[bernadette616]

So what do I do now? Do I have to empty the tank and start over? Or will the tank keep cycling and wait to put fish in? I have a 25 galllon,CC, biowheel 330, the Ph is fine the Nitrate is 0 and Nitrite is also 0 but the ammonia is .4

 

[tanker newbie]

when you say there dead AGAIN, does this mean that this has happend before?, if so when, how many fish did you have in there and which kinds? what was your other parmaters like temp,salinity level
also what did you have in your tank, did you have any live rock in your tank
the reason why im asking all these questions is to sort of prob for an answer of why it happend then to fix it so it wont happen again
if your haveing MAJOR problems with fish dieing all the time then i would break down the tank but i would heavly consider what your doing b4 you actually do it, my first time i had my tank set up i had a problem where my tank had fish dieing, i broke down the tank set it up, got a little bit more equpment and changed the tank a little by adding live rock
once the live rock was in my tank it did wonders i mean i went from haveing fish die every other day to not loseing a single fish yet.
also how long has your tank been set up?

 

[b_ball12_99]

Are the fish you've had for cycling? There are several other ways to cycle without fish. I wouldn't empty yet and would wait on more fish. You trying mollies by any chance?

 

[bernadette616]

No I didin't have any live rock, and the salinity is at 1.022. Water temp is 78.I had damsels in there one blue one domino, one black and white stripe and one yellow tail, four. Maybe I should have only had two? I cleaned out the tank completely and started over(Sun the 14 then added fish on Tues the 15) the first four lasted about a week. Then I replaced them with four more. Now they are all gone. I would really like this to work.... But it seems like this isnn't the hobby for me maybe.

 

[tanker newbie]

first off dont give up soo easly , salt water fish are hard to keep however its easy with regular maintance and the right equpment
i wouldent replace the fish right now but what i would do is change the cc to live sand(belive me you will thank me later) and second off get un-cured quality live rock
live rock has bacteria on it that dies off kick starting the cycle, also it provides a natural look of the ocean and it also gives hideing places , all thouse fake houses and fake corals n stuff it dosent compare to live rock( i learned my lesson the expensive way)
so i would get some live rock soon, fiji rock or any other pourice rock is good, its best if you have 1 to 1.5 pounds per gallon
now on to cycleing the tank theres diffrent ways to do it, first you can do it with a few fish, but i wouldent have 4, maybe 2 would be good
OR you can cycle it with all the live sand and live rock
OR you can cycle with dead shrimp
either way you go i HIGHLY recomend live rock and(if posible) live sand(because it lowers nitrates and just looks better)
also start saving for a protein skimmer, you do not need to get it now(or for a while) but after your tank cycles its recomended that you have one
about the salt level thats fine, and so is the temp so you dont have to change that. also how long are your lights on for, keeping your lights on for more than 12 hours a day (in my opnion) is a little stressfull, i prefer on my tank(a fish only tank with live rock) to have it on for about 10 hours
well thats all i can think of for now but everyone has had a time where they just wanted to give up ( i had it too) but if you take our advice and be optiomstic then your bound to have luck
ohhhhh and 1 more MAJOR thing, have patients(spelling) take your time with doing things and youll have more luck with keeping your tank running well

 

[bernadette616]

So do I need to take the tank down, and start over, or can I keep this one going from here? I leave the Lights on about 1o hrs also. Can you put the live sand in over the CC? Ans you said 1 lb per gal, well wouldn't that be alot of rock in a 25 gal? And should I have both, or pic one? I rally appreciate your help

 

[tanker newbie]

you CAN keep the cc and keep the tank from where you left off getting 1 pound of live rock per gallon(or 1.5) OR you can take the cc out and put the live sand in
about putting live sand on cc you CAN but its not recomended
also you said can you have live sand, or live rock, or both or do you have to pick 1
well for water quality after the tank cycles its best if you have live sand and live rock, however cc with live rock can also work it just wont do as good a job as live sand(im not saying your fish wont survive) but itll be a little better for them
in my opnion live rock is needed no matter what your substrate is, just dont come online and yell at me when you see the price of it per pound(it gets expensive) your going to want a pourice rock(like fiji) also it should be UNCURED, which will smell like the ocean , when u get it, the bacteria will die off causeing an ammonia spike(kick starting or helping your cycle) same with live sand
if you have any other questions feel free

 

[bernadette616]

Sorry Tanker, I wan't yelling I just thought it seemed to be alot of rock for a 25gal tank, I look at it like (size wise); like putting a 25lb turkey in there, seems like there would be no more room for fish. But I will go with your suggestions. If I keep the water in the tank how would I get the CC out? Just dig it out? The ammonia level is at .6 because of the fish die off? All other levels are right where they should be. If I put the live rock in the wouldn't it destroy it?
Thanx

 

[tanker newbie]

i know it seems like a lot and for small tanks it does take up a decent ammount of room which limits the size of fish you can get, but even besides that with a 25 gallon tank you wouldent be able to get anything to big anyways
and now think about it this way if you have a cube thats 1 inch all around filled with nothing, or the same size cube filled with lead of course one will be heavier than the other
also yes u can just scoop out the cc and put the live sand in
and to your other question did the fish die off add to the ammonia , yes it did when ever you have anything die in your tank it will raise your ammonia
live rock will add a little to alot(depending on die off) of ammonia to your tank, once bacteria starts kicking in to break ammonia down your nitrites will go up as the ammonia goes down, then your nitirites will rise all the way, bacteria will get esblished and your nitites will break down into nitrates then live sand and live rock turn nitrates into some gas(i forgot which one) and with the ripple of the water on the surface allows for gas extange
also the protein skimmer(which is not to be used durning the cycle) gets rid of nitrates as well(nitrates in small amounts arent harmfull but in large ammounts are) in either case nitrates you want to be at the lowest you can have them

 

[bobj]

First: All tanks need biological filters.
that is what your biowheel provides.
Second: Live rock can be used as a biological
filter by itself.(Berlin system)
Live sand is used in the (Jaubert
natural system.)
The amount of live rock and live
sand recommended is usually used for
natural reef systems without any
other biological filter. You don't
need it for a FO tank. Reef tanks
benefit from ls because it also
decreases nitrates because of the
heterotrophic bacteria
Third: Four damsels are too many fish to use
to cycle a 25gal tank.
Fourth: If you do add a SMALL piece of lr
for interest and some added
filtration get CURED lr which is
already cleaned and has bacteria
on it.
Fifth: I recommend that you set up the tank
with cc and porous dead rock.
Let the tank cyle with one damsel
or one dead shrimp. You can add
lr after the cylce and when the
water is stable add whatever fish
you want.

 

[tanker newbie]

bobj im not flameing you here but i just tend to dissagree with your post
cured live rock dosent have the die off thats needed to keep or kick start the ammonia. so why get cured live rock that has ammonia in the tank and then get a damsel and put the damsel from a tank with no ammonia into a tank thats cycleing?? thatll only add stress to the fish
live sand is good on any tank weather its fish only,fish only with live rock, or reef the ultimate goal is to have no nitrates and a deep live sand bed does help more than cc ever would
the only thing i really somewhat agree with is your 5th comment, you can either get a peice of cured live rock after the cycle is over and keep the cycle going with a fish(but itll be stressful) or you can use dead shrimp

 

[caymanlovers]

Bernadette - Did you go get books as previously suggested? Seems you should do a bunch of research BEFORE you start over, get to understand how the LS and LR etc. work with cycling. You will avoid the frustration you are obviously experiencing. This BB is a great resource but we all have to do our homework first.

 

[bernadette616]

These posts have been a great help, Thanx

 

[bernadette616]

Trey,
What type of lighting would be nessary for the live rock and sand set up? I would really like to suceed with this.

 

[slk3599]

From personal experience, I have had a 75g FOWLR tank up and running for over a year. The coraline from the live rock is speading all over the tank including the back glass and the tufa rock. I have to scrape if off the front and side glass. I am using two normal output lights on this tank - an actinctic and 20,000k. You don't need any special lighting like halides, power compacts or VHO if you are not going to keep corals.

 

[bernadette616]

Trey,
I found a place called ************* they have package deals on the live sand and live rock, if you get a chance to check it out let me know if this is a good deal. You can eamil me directly @
[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: sammystingray ]
[ May 30, 2001: Message edited by: Bernadette616 ]

 

[bernadette616]

I don't know how to get rid of that info. Sorry i didn't know you could do that.

 

[krazykarel]

Trey,
When adding calcium supplement, where should I added? Dirrectly on to the rock or should i put it in my sump and let it filter in to the tank?
Thanks

 

[slk3599]

This is something those poor unfortunates addicted to Fiji rock never seem to consider.
Do you want to explain to me what you mean by this (as I am one of the unfortunate that you seem to be talking about.