Fish die, other stuff doesn't.

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33
http:///forum/post/2804476
What kind of top off water are you using? If you are using de-chlorinated tap water you may have some excess clorine/chloramines in the water. But then, that doesn't really explain why only your inverts do well.
Do you ever hear a small popping sound coming from your tank? It could be a mantis shrimp. lol.
How are you doing water changes? What water are you using? What type of lights do you have? What is the light cycle time? How many pounds of live rock do you have? What kind of filtration system do you use? Do you use a UV sterilizer? Do you acclimate your live stock?
Top off and water change water is from my RO unit. As a matter of fact I am so paranoid now that I just ordered a NEW RO/DI unit, just in case the problem was with my RO water. It should arrive in about 2 days.
Yes, I do hear occasional popping sounds but they are coming from my tiger pistol shrimp. Never heard any popping before I purchased him. But supposedly he's only snapping for fun and amusement - he's not supposed to be hurting anything in the tank. As a matter of fact he had paired up with the goby for the few days and they were buddies. Now my shrimp is lonely again.
Lighting is the 50/50 that came with the Eclipse. I turn it on when I'm home for lunch and turn it off around 10 p.m.
I've got a carbon/pad filter that came with the system as well as a biowheel set up, and I have about 14 pounds of live rock in there and an inch or so of live sand. No UV sterilizer, and yes, I drip acclimate and then float the new livestock.
Think I answered all your questions but if not, ask away!
Sue

 

[nano12er]

I've got a carbon/pad filter that came with the system as well as a biowheel set up, and I have about 14 pounds of live rock in there and an inch or so of live sand
Silly question, But have you replaced the filter pad that came with the system? I am sure you have, though the way it reads, maybe not?

 

[grue]

At this point PLEASE set up a Q tank. Each Critter spends 3 weeks in it. Heater Light (Cheap) Cheap filter. Copper it. While in the QT feed vitimans, Garlic.
Grue

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by Grue
http:///forum/post/2804575
At this point PLEASE set up a Q tank. Each Critter spends 3 weeks in it. Heater Light (Cheap) Cheap filter. Copper it. While in the QT feed vitimans, Garlic.
Grue
Using copper for the sake of using copper isn't a great idea; some fish can't handle doses of copper, and it's an awful lot of stress for those that can.
IMO, feeding with vitamins and garlic ARE a good idea, but there has to be some reason that the fish are dying and the inverts aren't. Also, your pH is fine, some people have it as low as 7.8 without adverse affects... major pH swings are dangerous, but if it only goes from 8.2 to 8.0 (a change of .2 will often happen overnight, every night as it is), then it's not the problem.
Before the fish died, did you notice any white spots? Any reddish patches? Any scale or fin rot? Did the fish eat ok right before they died? Also, have you been getting all your fish at the same fish store? I didn't see that anywhere in the thread (sorry if it's been touched on already), but if you used the same fish store for every fish that died, try a different one.
I started out with the same exact tank you have now and it had fish in it for nearly a year and a half without any issue. I used all stock stuff, too. The tank can support saltwater fish (though, of course, it's not as nice of a setup as many of the other all-in-one nano tanks), but there may be something that's not setup quite right. Do you change the filter pads every 2-3 weeks? Do they look "dirty"?

 

[m0nk]

Also, I agree that your temp is a tad low. I suggest you slowly raise it over the next day or two up to about 78. That's usually the norm for most saltwater tanks.

 

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by Nano12er
http:///forum/post/2804544
I've got a carbon/pad filter that came with the system as well as a biowheel set up, and I have about 14 pounds of live rock in there and an inch or so of live sand
Silly question, But have you replaced the filter pad that came with the system? I am sure you have, though the way it reads, maybe not?
Yes, I change the filter pads religiously and eyeball them every day to make sure they don't look dirty. But the way I had typed it I can see why you questioned it.
Thanks for checking. Sometimes it's the tiny, silly things we overlook while we spend so much time on the BIGGER issues.
Sue

 

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by m0nk
http:///forum/post/2804588
Using copper for the sake of using copper isn't a great idea; some fish can't handle doses of copper, and it's an awful lot of stress for those that can.
IMO, feeding with vitamins and garlic ARE a good idea, but there has to be some reason that the fish are dying and the inverts aren't. Also, your pH is fine, some people have it as low as 7.8 without adverse affects... major pH swings are dangerous, but if it only goes from 8.2 to 8.0 (a change of .2 will often happen overnight, every night as it is), then it's not the problem.
Before the fish died, did you notice any white spots? Any reddish patches? Any scale or fin rot? Did the fish eat ok right before they died? Also, have you been getting all your fish at the same fish store? I didn't see that anywhere in the thread (sorry if it's been touched on already), but if you used the same fish store for every fish that died, try a different one.
I started out with the same exact tank you have now and it had fish in it for nearly a year and a half without any issue. I used all stock stuff, too. The tank can support saltwater fish (though, of course, it's not as nice of a setup as many of the other all-in-one nano tanks), but there may be something that's not setup quite right. Do you change the filter pads every 2-3 weeks? Do they look "dirty"?

I agree I should set up a quarantine tank, but routinely place every new acquisition in copper? That scares me a little. No, it scares me a lot. I'm much too new to this hobby to be messing with something like that..... I can do much more harm than good.
I have tried fish from three different sources - all die in just about the same period of time so it's me, it's not the LFS. (at least in these cases). I carefully examine each body while it's dying and afterwards and there are NO outward signs of trouble. But no, none of them have ever been good eaters from the day I get them. It's like something starts bothering them from the minute I add them to my tank. I always figured they weren't comfortable enough with the new environment to eat for the first day or two but soon after they die so I never get the chance to see if they'd eat if they were around longer.
If I go out and buy the makings of a quarantine tank tonight, don't I have to cycle it before I can put anything in it? I would like to get my pistol shrimp and feather duster out of the "bad" tank ASAP and then maybe zap it with something to kill whatever is in there. But do I have to wait 4 or more weeks to cycle a Q tank before I have a place to put them? Actually this 12 gallon tank was going to BECOME my Q tank once I got it up and running and went onto my bigger tank, but I'm stuck at square one.

 

[nano12er]

My guess would be that your tank is still cycling then, Was the LR "cured" LR when you purchased it? Even if it was you would have had a cycle, though a much shorter one. Your rock doesn't sound like it is processing your trites and trates quite effectively yet which is why I ask. When I set my 12 up, I purchased "uncured" LR, I did 25% water changes to my 12 every 3 days to help the curing process. Give your tank a little more time, do a few water changes over 12 days or so. It could simply just be the rock hasn't cured yet. My inverts were alot hardier than fish when my system was setting up and balancing out...

 

[grue]

Yes, it has to cycle.
Change pad in your DT
Use old pad in QT.
Most LFS use copper. I dont even think about the Stresses at this point. I look at it this way, The Fish is home. I will do anything I can to keep it alive. I would also rather it die in my qt than in my DT.
Grue

 

[1journeyman]

My suspicion is oxygen deprivation.
When are the fish dying?

 

[ajer]

What Inverts do you have?

 

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by Nano12er
http:///forum/post/2804613
My guess would be that your tank is still cycling then, Was the LR "cured" LR when you purchased it? Even if it was you would have had a cycle, though a much shorter one. Your rock doesn't sound like it is processing your trites and trates quite effectively yet which is why I ask. When I set my 12 up, I purchased "uncured" LR, I did 25% water changes to my 12 every 3 days to help the curing process. Give your tank a little more time, do a few water changes over 12 days or so. It could simply just be the rock hasn't cured yet. My inverts were alot hardier than fish when my system was setting up and balancing out...
I find it hard to believe the tank is still cycling. I started the tank three months ago and did daily water checks and charted and tracked them all. I watched the ammonia rise and peak and I watched it come back down again. I watched as the ammonia turned to zero and the nitrites would go up slightly, then would go down and the nitrates would go up slightly. I've done weekly water changes, about 10%. Every day I still test the water, every day I think the levels are good.
Originally Posted by Grue
http:///forum/post/2804619
Yes, it has to cycle.
Change pad in your DT
Use old pad in QT.
Most LFS use copper. I dont even think about the Stresses at this point. I look at it this way, The Fish is home. I will do anything I can to keep it alive. I would also rather it die in my qt than in my DT.
Grue
OK, old pad in QT tank - should I put some live rock in there too or are we thinking the rock could be contaminated with whatever is killing my fish? And then do I still wait the 2-4 weeks for a cycle or is it good enough for the pistol shrimp and feather duster after a few days with the pad and LR?
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2804622
My suspicion is oxygen deprivation. It really, truly LOOKS like oxygen deprivation, but for the life of me I can't figure out WHY. I've heard there is decent circulation in the Eclipse 12 but even so I have been keeping the water level a tiny bit below the output level so that it has to "splash" back into the tank. In addition I added an AquaClear powerhead to the tank this weekend and after that the fish started breathing heavily at the bottom of the tank. What else would cause lack of oxygen in water and more importantly what ELSE can I do to get some in there. There was LOTS of flow after I added the powerhead.
When are the fish dying?
>
The first two I lost lasted one and two weeks, but both died on the same day. After that, the last three have only lasted an average of 3 days.
Originally Posted by Ajer
http:///forum/post/2804674
What Inverts do you have?
Few snails, few hermits, a feather duster and a tiger pistol shrimp.
Thanks for any thoughts. This will haunt me forever, long after I've torn it apart and started over. I want to know WHY this is happening so I can make sure it never happens again.
Sue

 

[kingsmith]

Jeeze Sue sorry to hear that you are still having issues, I cann't really offer any better advice than has already been writen but if I can help in anyway let me know.
GoodLuck
JBS

 

[sueandherzoo]

Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/2804884
Jeeze Sue sorry to hear that you are still having issues, I cann't really offer any better advice than has already been writen but if I can help in anyway let me know.
GoodLuck
JBS
Thanks, King. If I have to gut this tank and start over from scratch, do you have the room or desire to babysit a tiger pistol shrimp?
OK, I just thought of something too basic and simple to be the problem but I have to ask anyway...... could the fish be dying from lack of oxygen in the water due to the Eclipse having a closed top? The only opening is where the powercords go in and out. I REALLY think this is an oxygen problem (the way the first symptom is always breathing heavily and then soon after - dead). I just don't understand WHY the water doesn't have enough in it, even after adding a powerhead. Sorry, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Sue

 

[nano12er]

Possible, though unlikely Sue, Again, if your rock didn't finish "curing" before adding fish, then maybe... There are many harmful gasses that are.. let out... by the rock itself if it is not "cured" or "mature" as well as the gasses that are released from the fish and inverts, These gasses may be contained by a hood, though, if you open it enough, they're not going to get to extreme levels. Oxygen?? You should have plenty of it, if you are like me, I am always fiddling around with my tank, removing the hood.. yada yada... Your Bio wheel incorporates Oxygen into the water, every time it turns, exposed to air, it puts O2 into the water..... Not its purpose, though it does it anyway. A power head will only add circulation to your tank, not oxygen, the surface of water must be broken to incorporate oxygen into water, your wheel so long as it is turning, is doing the job. Good job on getting the power head though, it may relieve some "dead" spots within the tank and help things quite a bit!!! Maybe that is why your fish statred breathing heavily after installing it... it pulled toxins out of dead areas?? Who knows???
Good luck!!

 

[nano12er]

find it hard to believe the tank is still cycling. I started the tank three months ago and did daily water checks and charted and tracked them all. I watched the ammonia rise and peak and I watched it come back down again. I watched as the ammonia turned to zero and the nitrites would go up slightly, then would go down and the nitrates would go up slightly. I've done weekly water changes, about 10%. Every day I still test the water, every day I think the levels are good.
If the rock was not cured, you may be finishing your cycle... I do a 25% h2o chang on mine, once every 10-12 days, water parameters are not good unless they are zero... try to do a larger change, maybe 30% if you can, and again in a few days, before doing the change, use a turkey baster to blow off the rocks and then suck with your siphon all of that stuff out in your change....
Good Luck!!

 

[sueandherzoo]

Hi Nano, and thanks for the thoughts. The live rock was cured when I got it, though. I picked it out of a tank at the LFS, they packed it in plastic bags full of water, and I put it right into the tank - it never got dry. That was about 2.5 - 3 months ago.
Glad yours is working out well for you. Hopefully in time I'll be able to report the same.
Sue

 

[grue]

Yes tank could still be cycling. Rock can take as long as 6 months. As to adding LR to the q tank. NO. Q tanks aka Hospital may need to be dosed with meds, copper Etc. Most likely kill anything on/in the rock. Just a basic filter heater. Expect to do water changes 2 to 3 times a week. Gallon here gallon there. With the old filter on your Q tank and no sand/rock I wouldn't worry much about a cycle. Only thing to cycle is the filter. Use Old filter, Do water changes From your Display. After all if your going to change water shouldnt it go into your best one? And the water from the display should be stabilized. So should help the Q tank.
Grue

 

[m0nk]

Originally Posted by Grue http:///forum/post/2805009
Yes tank could still be cycling. Rock can take as long as 6 months. As to adding LR to the q tank. NO. Q tanks aka Hospital may need to be dosed with meds, copper Etc. Most likely kill anything on/in the rock. Just a basic filter heater. Expect to do water changes 2 to 3 times a week. Gallon here gallon there. With the old filter on your Q tank and no sand/rock I wouldn't worry much about a cycle. Only thing to cycle is the filter. Use Old filter, Do water changes From your Display. After all if your going to change water shouldnt it go into your best one? And the water from the display should be stabilized. So should help the Q tank.
Grue
Sorry to again disagree with you here, but water changes from your display into a new tank to cycle it does nothing to help a cycle along... all it does is put dirty water into your new tank.
When cycling a tank your goal is to build up the beneficial bacteria that breaks down organic matter before it dissolves into ammonia. The cycle creates this bacteria through the various stages and this bacteria lives/grows on solid material, not in the water. Therefore, because none of this beneficial bacteria lives in the water, using water from a display tank won't help.
If you want to speed up a cycle, yes, using a filter that's been running on your DT for a while will help speed it up. It would also help to take a fully cured piece of live rock and place this in the new tank UNTIL the cycle is complete, as the bacteria from the rock will spread to other solid surfaces. This rock can then be removed and placed back into your DT or other tank. Cycling a QT can also take longer than a DT because there is usually a lot more live rock or other solid surface where the bacteria is already living or can re-establish, while a QT will often have only the glass, heater, filter, decorations, and/or PVC to colonize bacteria. Please read Beth's thread for disease treaments and QT for more info:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/127007/faqs-fish-diseases-treatments-quarantine-health-info
Hope that helps!

 

[m0nk]

Something else that I just considered:
Since they seem to die not long after going into the tank, it's also possible that your acclimation process has some flaws. When you "drip" acclimate, are you actually doing it with an air hose line and dripping it slowly all that time? There's a great drip acclimation tutorial to the left (flash based) that works perfectly. A year and a half ago I lost 3 or 4 (bought at different times from different stores) fish within a week of purchase while all the other fish in my tank were thriving and healthy. I was using a turkey baster to add a tad bit of tank water to their container every 5 minutes or so for an hour or more. While I was told once that this was an acceptable way to acclimate fish, they still all died. Once I started using a proper drip acclimation process I never lost a fish. My guess is while some fish might be hardy enough to survive this sort of acclimation, most fish are too delicate.