Fish Disease or New Tank Syndrome?

[cjsoup]

Purchased biocube 29 gal tank before Thanksgiving so we could have fish at Christmas.
Added 1 blue damsel, 1 green chromis 2 weeks later.
Green chromis died a few days later and we replaced with a domino damsel.
Got a cleaner pack including a lawnmower blenny at around 3 weeks.
Did a 20% water change at 3 1/2 weeks and added stability.
At around 5 weeks, inlaws arrived and we went to the store to get the kids Christmas presents.
Store's fish had come cross country the night before, and had been stranded on a tarmac all day (where it was cold).
We purchased a midas blenny, hippo tang, yellow tang, 2 clowns, 2 cleaner shrimp, & 1 starfish.
A couple days later, the hippo was covered in ich. We called the store, asked what we could/should do, and they said that ich was normal, the fish was stressed from being introduced into the tank, and to wait it out.
Next day, clown 1 dies. We call again. Ask if there is anything we should do, since now it seems obvious that something is clearly not good. They said no.
Okay, so then clown #2 goes, then the blue damsel, followed by the hippo, who got pale and belly shrunken, then the lawnmower blenny. At this point we did another 20% water change as the NO3 was around 5-10. All other levels have remained fine throuhgout. Then the yellow tang goes today, and now the midas blenny's eyes are looking cloudy and the domino damsel is no longer black but more gray and his eyes are cloudy. We don't expect either of them to last through the day. Once they go, no more fish...
The shop owner is going from saying the new fish may not have been good quality, to saying that we rushed our tank...he says this knowing exactly how long we have had our system going. Never once did he say that it wasn't ready, or we should only get one or two more at a time... He happily took our $200 and filled us up with fish, even saying we needed to do 2 Tangs at a time, and 2 cleaner shrimp...
So, I ask the experts here...new tank syndrome? Or possibility that the new fish infected our tank and made it toxic to the existing guys. It has been heartbreaking for all of us to watch every single fish die and we certainly don't want to go through this again.
Thank you for your input.

 

[k916]

So many fish in such a tiny tank?
Too early for fish. You need to find a new LFS

 

[meowzer]

WOW....Well.....welcome to SWF.... BUT.....Have you read anything about keeping sw tanks? IDK where to begin....YES your tank was too new for any fish...or anything else for that matter
a tang NEVER NEVER should be purchased for a 29G tank.....IMO NEVER go back to that store.....read the top threads in the new hobbyist section....they will explain a lot about setting up a new tank
DO you have anything living left?
Can you tell us what exactly you do have as far as equipment, live rock, live sand etc etc...do you have your own test kits?

 

[cjsoup]

Yes, we test 2x a week. All levels have been good except for the NO3 that was a little high yesterday (5-10).
Hubby took the midas blenny and the domino damsel to the store so they could put them in a quarantine tank and see if they could get them not to die...
We have a starfish (brittle I think, reminds me more of a spider than a stafish - creeps me out!), emerald crab, 2 cleaner shrimp, and some turbo snails, crabs, etc. but no fish.
BTW, what is LFS?
What should we do at this point? I would have MUCH rather he told us we couldn't do it now, or only get one more fish for Christmas, than systematically watch every single fish die...sad.
We have live rock that they acclimatized (can't remember the term) at the store.
Sadly, we didn't do much research. We have followed everything they said and asked a lot of questions. We "thought" this would be easier than a new puppy! LOL

 

[meowzer]

LFS = local fish store
In my opinion, read the top threads in the new hobbyist section first....When starting a new tank, it has to go thru certain processes.....then you SLOWLY add stuff
for example....after a month, and after all test leavels for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate reach 0...you begin with a small cuc (CUC=clean up crew) which would be a few snails, maybe a crab
then after 2 weeks of all levels staying at 0....you add a fish (maybe 2).....wait 2-3 weeks etc etc
NEVER add a tang to such a small tank
DO: Plan your fish list beforehand.....you can not keep a lot of fish in a 29G, so it is best to do LOTS of research first.....for example...in my 29G I have 4 fish.
ALSO: Please list your equipment, how much live rock and sand you have

 

[cjsoup]

I have the biocube tank.
14.5 lbs of live rock, and 20lbs of live sand.
All levels were at 0 when we started adding... Too much too soon I guess.
What 4 fish do you have? Do blennies count as fish? Or do they count as a cleaner?

 

[meowzer]

Blennies are fish.....I have a zebra goby, citron goby, percula clown, striped blennie...OH I FORGOT I have a scooter blennie
so I have 5 fish,.....LOL....
All are smaller fish though.....YES IMO too much WAY too fast.....
What test kits are you using?

 

[btldreef]

I'm sorry you were given such terrible advise by your local fish store.
To start where things left off:
Blennies are fish, some serve as beneficial cleaners and eat algae, such as a Lawnmower Blenny (LMB). LMB's are considered "algae blennies" while Midas Blennies are considered "fang Blennies" and the two should not be mixed, especially in such a small tank, so this was also one of your issues.
I would leave the tank fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks (8weeks would be even better). This is so the ich that the hippo tang introduced to your tank dies off and won't infect the next fish you add. Ich can only live without a host (a fish) for 6-8 weeks. During this time, do some big water changes (50%) for the first 3 weeks, the cleaner the water, the better, at least in my opinion. After 3 weeks, start adding CUC members, start with some snails and hermits. Wait a week or two, then add your shrimp. IMO, a brittle star or really any starfish for that matter isn't a good fit in a 29G tank. Brittles have been known to eat small fish as they get larger, and in a tiny space with small fish, it's not a good idea. Once you reach the 6-8 week mark, buy a healthy fish at a different store. Really observe the fish, look for ich (although you may not always see it, which is why it's a good idea to get a little quaratine tank [QT]), make sure the fish eats, etc.
If you can set up a small QT, this would be ideal, you could even set one up while you leave your 29G fishless. A 10G tank with a small biowheel or AquaClear filter on it would work just fine. By having a QT tank, you can purchase a fish from the store and isolate it in it's own tank. Many people run the QT at a lower salinily to kill off ich parasites and make sure the fish is free of parasites before introducing to the main tank. If you do this, your tank should stay ich free. In QT you'll also be able to observe the fishes eating habits and behavior. ***** is running a deal right now $1/G tanks, so a 10G tank will only cost you $10 and an AquaClear filter for that size tank will run you $25-$30, definitely worth the investment considering how expensive certain saltwater fish can be.
IMO, your tank could also use a little more live rock. The "acclimated" live rock you bought is "cured" live rock, and you'll need cured live rock since your tank is already semi established from here on. Adding uncured live rock will cause your tank to cycle again (kill fish, etc).
I also agree that you need to go read through the New Hobbyists threads here:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/301033/101-tips-to-beginning-and-maintaining-a-saltwater-aquarium
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/264597/a-list-of-extremely-helpful-threads-for-all-hobbyists
it's a lot of information to absorb at once and feel free to post questions as they come up, there are many very helpful people on this forum.
Good luck!

 

[cjsoup]

I have been reading the 100 thing thread.
Do you think that the fish could have had Brooklynella since the clowns were the first to go? And because they all lost their color?
I would love to go to a new fish store...but we are down over $200 at this point in fish (a reasonable sum for us) and he will likely replace some of them for us. We aren't poor, but would rather not have to go out of pocket on this when we feel that he gave us poor advice which caused this whole issue...
What should we do with the snails, hermits, starfish, and shrimp we currently have in the meantime? Can they stay in the tank, since at this point they appear to be okay?
Why shouldn't the 2 blennies be mixed? I had read that you could do up to 2 in a 30 gal...
We really were "conned" into thinking this would be a simple thing...told nothing about quarantine tanks, etc. I wish I would have researched more in the beginning, but we have 3 young kids, and sometimes you just want to believe... We don't need to go crazy with fish, but we love the look of coral, anenomes, etc and thought the tank would be a great learning experience for the kids. Unfortunately, the only learning has been about death... we are all very depressed, and personally I would love for them to take the darn thing back at this point.

 

[meowzer]

I understand the frustration....BUT you have to remember...stores are looking to sell....OH nott 100% of them are bad, BUT they make no money off advice....only purchases
What test kits do you have at the moment? What are your water readings now? Will your lfs give you more cured rock in place of the fish?
Certain types of fish just can not get along.....the 2 types of blennies you mentioned are ones that tend tofight in smaller tanks.
Do you have any idea what fish you would like? Post your list, and we can help you with compatibility.. ALSO.....what type of lighting do you have? Adding corals will depend on that, a lot are dependent on ligh, and many need a well established tank too. As far as anemones they definitely need excelling lighting, and should never be added to a tnka that is not at least 6 months old.

 

[btldreef]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsoup http:///forum/thread/382849/fish-disease-or-new-tank-syndrome#post_3344050
I have been reading the 100 thing thread.
Do you think that the fish could have had Brooklynella since the clowns were the first to go? And because they all lost their color? More than likely, it was too much too soon, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had ich, especially since you added two tangs.
I would love to go to a new fish store...but we are down over $200 at this point in fish (a reasonable sum for us) and he will likely replace some of them for us. We aren't poor, but would rather not have to go out of pocket on this when we feel that he gave us poor advice which caused this whole issue... I definitely understand. If you're going to continue to use this LFS, I highly recommend a QT.
What should we do with the snails, hermits, starfish, and shrimp we currently have in the meantime? Can they stay in the tank, since at this point they appear to be okay? They can remain in the tank, just no fish.
Why shouldn't the 2 blennies be mixed? I had read that you could do up to 2 in a 30 gal... They will fight, especially in smaller tanks. Forgot to mention, Scooter Blennies are not true blennies, so yes, they are an exception. IMO, a LMB does not belong in a 29G, you'd be better suited with a BiColor Blenny or TailSpot.
We really were "conned" into thinking this would be a simple thing...told nothing about quarantine tanks, etc. I wish I would have researched more in the beginning, but we have 3 young kids, and sometimes you just want to believe... We don't need to go crazy with fish, but we love the look of coral, anenomes, etc and thought the tank would be a great learning experience for the kids. Unfortunately, the only learning has been about death... we are all very depressed, and personally I would love for them to take the darn thing back at this point. Understandable. Unfortunately there are more "bad" LFS's out there than there are good these days, especially with the economy. Don't give up, it's doable, completely doable, but needs to be done much slower. I'd say more than half of us were not given good advice in the beginning, so on behalf of all those given horrible advice, Welcome to the club

 

[cjsoup]

We have a hydrometer and the API saltwater master test kit that tests pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
He would probably give us more rock...how much more should we get?
Readings as of yesterday were gravity 1.0215, pH, 8.0 ( have been adding buffer but reads are always a little on the low side), nitrite 0.25, nitrate 5-10.
I agree that they are there to sell...however, I also feel that they should either tell people that they need to do their research, or give you all the pertinent information, as they know you are a new fishtank owner. They acted as though they were doing the latter. Also, they have been talking out of both sides of their mouth...which I can't stand.
The fish "I" like are blennies, loved the look of the midas, but the personality of the lawnmower, bicolor athenias (sp?), however the tank was kind of a partial gift from the inlaws, who watch Nemo with the kids, so I got stuck with the clowns, hippo tang (who was actually quite entertaining and truly reminded us of Dorie from the movie, until she died...), and the store who said we had to get another tang, and my kids picked the yellow, who I thought was entirely boring. I LOVE wrasses, but my husband wants a reef.... Also love puffers. I really tend to like most things that are out of the ordinary.
This is our tank: http://www.amazon.com/SIZE-29-BIOCUBE-AQUARIUM-SYSTEM/dp/B000I1O5FM
It has a 10,000 Daylight Flourescent Lamp that we have on a timer for 6 hours a day, plus an actinic 03 blue compact florescent lamp. They daylight is on for an hour or so in the am, and then 5 in the evening, there are lunar blue-moon-glow LEDs on at all times. Temp is around 73.

 

[meowzer]

Probably another 15lbs of rock....The movie Nemo was great, but so unrealistic.....it's a shame that lfs take advantage of that
You should have NO nitrites....and your sg should be about 1.025......
I wouold do another w/c, but raise the sg a little this time. if you have stock cube lighting, I don't think it will be enough for an anemone either. It also seems you like the things that will not work in a 29G
look at this site under fish...there is a drop down...click on nano fish.....that will give you an idea
P.S get a refractometer.......hydrometers are very unreliable

 

[cjsoup]

The LFS didn't take advanatage of Nemo...it is what inlaws/hubby were thinking...I find fish that everyone knows on sight rather boring...but, the LFS didn't try to talk us out of it either.
Wow, 15 more lbs of rock...that is a lot. Also, is it easier to grow corals? We don't really care if they are anenomes or corals, grasses, etc. Whatever will give us some color and is easy to care for is fine. Oh, and they have to sway in the current, per my husband...
Irony is that one of the reasons we got the tank was a stress reliever for my husband who works from home...it has been anything but.

 

[1snapple]

ya, starting sucks, after you start it's pretty easy. As far as coral you can do a kenya tree, pulsating exina(?) and just soft corals in general. Soft corals tend to "sway with the current" but I prefer Acropora's and other SPS, (SPS= Small Polyp Stony coral)
LPS are easier to do and require less light, i like acans. (LPS= Large polyp stony coral)

 

[cjsoup]

Thank you all for all the great information!!! I love forums.
I am sure I will be a great lurker and sometime poster on this site from now on.
BTW, do most of you get your items from a LFS or an online presence? Even though I am in FL, it seems sometimes our options are somewhat limited.
Thanks again!

 

[meowzer]

Living in a really small area, I have no LFS....I buy 90% of my livestock and corals from this site.....I recommend them highly.....and since you are in FL, I believe they have shipping specisl for FL residents

 

[cjsoup]

We think we have a friend with a 14 gal tank we could have for free as a QT. Do we need live rock? Sand? Does that tank need to cycle too? And do corals get qurantined?

 

[meowzer]

No live rock is needed in a qt....and yes, it needs to cycle....no sand is needed either.....a lot of people put pvc pipes in there for fish in qt to hide in
you can qt corals.....BUT most people don;t....you can dip them.....depending on the coral will depend on the dip

 

[cjsoup]

So in this instance, cycle would mean adding saltwater and nothing else for 4-6 weeks? Aside from Stability? How do you get bacteria in there without anything?