Fish quantity and type for the 55

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55#post_3526488
None of the fish that are currently in my tank costs me over $25. If you really cared about your "sea friends", you wouldn't capture them and stick them in a small glass environment in the first place. Once you establish the proper amount of livestock to match the bio-load for the size of the tank you're maintaining, there's no need to add any additional fish that could potentially harm the existing fish in your tank. If what you say about the lifespan of your fish is true, then why are you adding more fish than is recommended for the size of tank you're maintaining? In all the years I've had tanks, I've never QTed any inverts or corals I've added to my tank, and never experienced any of my fish from catching some fatal disease. Am I just lucky, or is the QT procedure just a myth?
You are just lucky!!

 

[jay0705]

You want to criticize people for keeping wild fish in there tanks yet your doing the same thing! You just keep the cheap ones!!!!! Give me a break. Guessing since your fish keeping on the cheap,most of your fish are of the hardy variety. Hence why u have no issues not qt them. Shockingly the 2 fish that died are the 2 fish that do need good water quality and good filtration due to eating habits(puffer)

 

[kiefers]

So, I'm sitting reading this and thinking this is getting out of hand. The poster has gotten lucky whether due to having hardy fish or they know what they are doing, it works for them. They are sharing their opinion and an opinion is all it is. Some folks here do not QT either and that's fine, however, it is sometimes difficult to actually get a tone in voice while typing, we need to be open to ones thoughts and opinions as long as it is not being pushed on to others.
Let's please keep this open to the Op's questions and comments.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridget111188 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55#post_3526395
Ok, I think I have my fish list figured out... Tell me what you think please. I wont be offended by your thoughts. I'll list them in the order of placement in the tank. Time also added.
Step 1 first fish adding soon after the tank has cycled (2 weeks to 1 month)
2 to 4 Chromis
Step 2 clean up crew adding a month or two after the chromis (1.5 month to 2 months)
10 Blue leg hermit crabs
5 Turbo snails
10 Spiny star astreae snails
10 Nassarius snails
Step 3 interesting cleaners added (2 months to 3 months)
1 to 2 Two spotted gobies
Step 4 more schooling if needed may not add added (3 to 5 months)
1 to 3 Anthias
Step 5 cleaner for worm pick up added (3 months to 5 months)
1 Sunrise dotty back
Step 6 movement fish added (4 to 6 months)
1 or 2 Red headed fairy wrasse
Step 7 pretty cleaners added (4 to 6 months)
1 or 2 Harlequin shrimp
Step 8 I would love to have an angel but may not need added (4 to 8 months)
1 Coral beauty
Step 9 if needed more cleaners may not need one may not add (4 to 6 months)
Brittle starfish
Step 10 I would love an anemone and I know clarkii (8 months to 1 year)
1 to 2 Clarkii clowns
1 Condi anemone or long tentacle anemone what are clarkiis more likely to bond to?
Step 11 easy coral life that spread fast added (8 months to 1.5 year)
Fancy blue, red and curly mushrooms
Step 12 easy to house and easy to frag added (8 months to 1.5 year)
Toadstool and finger ?leathers
Step 13 very nice hard coral added t: bold;">(8 months to 2 years)
Montiporas
Hi,
Okay...
Step #1. The ONLY way to be able to tell if your tank is cycled is by doing "lab type" water tests. Time means nothing. A chunk of raw shrimp will kick start the cycle, but only a test will tell you when that cycle is complete.
Step #2. The astraea snails, can't upright themselves...I would go for another snail that does the same thing. You add your CUC (clean up crew) when you see algae, so they have something to eat and "clean up" again, time means nothing.
Step#3. Spotted gobies? Do you mean a diamond backed sand sifter? Sand sifters are awesome to watch, but they would quickly deplete the sand bed of fauna and starve to death, again they can learn to eat frozen but it's not easy...and never two in the same 55g tank.
Step #4. Anthias are not a very hardy fish, I would select something else. A tank under 1 year goes through all kinds of changes before it's mature enough to house the more delicate species of critters.
Step #5. Worm pick up? Bristle worms are a good guy cleaner in your tank. The ONLY reason you would have too many is if you have enough wasted food for them to over populate, overfeeding causes all kinds of problems. It would be best to pay attention to how much or what food then concern yourself with how to be rid of too many worms.
Step #6. Moveable fish???? Unless you put a mesh top on your tank, a fairy wrasse is going to jump out and commit sushi...they sure are pretty, but what do you mean by removable?
Step #7. Pretty cleaners...LOL, I think they are butt ugly (JMO) anyway, having never had one... I looked up some info:

• 
  Harlequin shrimp are predatory and require a specific diet of starfish and some sea urchins for long-term survival.

Step #8. The coral beauty is a good idea, a very pretty useful fish, since dwarf angels like to nibble algae (even hair algae) off the rock.
Step #9. Add that brittle (but not green brittle) starfish from the start, they eat wasted food and will prevent the overpopulation of the bristle worms you were concerned about in step #5
Step #10. No clown will host a long tentacle tube anemone. It's a 60% chance the clown will not even host with any anemone. Anemones eat other tank mates, such as shrimp and fish...anything dumb enough to get too close to them. They go where they want, and often that's the back of the tank, or over the top of a coral. You have to cover all the power heads, or it will commit sushi by getting sucked up, and it poisons the tank as it dies. Anemones require very strong lighting, EXCEPT the tube anemones, which are nocturnal and have their own light (beautiful fish eaters they are!).
Step #11. You don't have to wait for corals, the very hardy mushroom ones you listed, can be added right along with your first fish. Lighting and tank water parameters (known by doing the water tests) dictate if the coral can be added and survive (under 20). They don't even need fancy lights.
Step #12. Most SPS corals do require very strong lights, as does an anemone for clown fish. They also require perfect 0 nitrates to survive. Your water tests are your life line to know what's going on in your tank.

 

[jay0705]

I agree options are what this forum is for. Good or bad

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay0705 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526494
You want to criticize people for keeping wild fish in there tanks yet your doing the same thing! You just keep the cheap ones!!!!! Give me a break. Guessing since your fish keeping on the cheap,most of your fish are of the hardy variety. Hence why u have no issues not qt them. Shockingly the 2 fish that died are the 2 fish that do need good water quality and good filtration due to eating habits(puffer)
I'm not criticizing anyone about their justification for owning and maintaining their tanks. I personally don't get attached to any of the fish I keep in my tank, and when someone states their fish are their "little friends" that they expect to live a long time, I find it somewhat hypocritical they have that thought process when their fish would prefer to live a life in the open sea. As far as "hardy" fish, I've had Tangs, puffers, anthias, gobies, angels, a couple varities of eels, and even a butterfly that lasted a few years in another tank I had operational. I've helped my brother build a rather large shark and octopus tank that he's maintained the same way I've maintained mine. My daughter had a seahorse tank for 3 years before breaking it down because she got tired of maintaining it. The only "luck" in this hobby is the quality of livestock you purchase either from some online source like this web site, or a reputable LFS. What you get is a crap shoot. You stick an exotic fish in a plastic bag, stuff it in some dark box that gets jostled around in the back of a truck, then through an airport, then back in a truck until it reaches your home. Of course it's going to be stressed. I just prefer to put it in its final environment instead of some empty tank with a couple of rocks. Why stress it out a second time moving it from a QT tank to your main tank. I've always insured that I introduce new livestock into my tank when it's night time and all the lights are off in and around the tank. It gives the livestock time to acclimate without being intimidated by the existing inhabitants. Is it luck? Maybe so. But if something doesn't survive the move, I simply pull it out, and decide whether I want to add something else.

 

[sweatervest13]

I'll say this and then be done.
If you run a QT, great... If you don't, that's fine. But if you don't find the need to run a QT, or you feel that ich is a myth. Don't go around promoting not using a well established method of fish husbandry... Using a Quarantine tank.
It would be like saying that you have had a ton of unprotected sex and never caught anything. And then questioning why anyone would advocate using condoms. If you don't what to use them... That's fine. But don't go around telling others not to use them too.
I feel that this site is a resource for keeping saltwater fish. A Quarantine Tank is a great tool for keeping our Display Tanks running happy and healthy. For new comers into this hobby, I feel that stressing setting up a QT is a good idea. There are lots of hobbyists that have maintained successful tanks without putting all livestock through a QT. But I will always suggest a QT.

 

[flower]

Sorry....Letting go and hitting the ignore button.

 

[tthemadd1]

Wow you are why I dislike forums in general. Get of your soapboxes and help our friend with the problem.
We get it you both have egos that define your techniques. Really we all get it.
So let us all know your updates when your ready and hopefully you were able to get some good information out of this argument.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatervest13 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526513
I'll say this and then be done.
If you run a QT, great... If you don't, that's fine. But if you don't find the need to run a QT, or you feel that ich is a myth. Don't go around promoting not using a well established method of fish husbandry... Using a Quarantine tank.
It would be like saying that you have had a ton of unprotected sex and never caught anything. And then questioning why anyone would advocate using condoms. If you don't what to use them... That's fine. But don't go around telling others not to use them too.
I feel that this site is a resource for keeping saltwater fish. A Quarantine Tank is a great tool for keeping our Display Tanks running happy and healthy. For new comers into this hobby, I feel that stressing setting up a QT is a good idea. There are lots of hobbyists that have maintained successful tanks without putting all livestock through a QT. But I will always suggest a QT.
There's always opposite opinions to any viable solution. I simply disagree with the premise that having a QT is some form of requirement for anyone getting into this hobby. You seem to think it's taboo to have one, and if anyone suggests otherwise is committing some form of blasphemy. I've been in this hobby for over 20 years now, so I think my experience on the subject has some merit. The initial costs of starting even a 55 can be intimidating, and I find it pointless to spend even more for a device that has it's limited uses if you maintain your aquarium to the recommended specifications that are readily available at a reputable LFS, and now online (including this site).
As far as ich, I whole heartedly think it is a myth to some degree. Yes, certain species that become stressed (i.e. the Tang family) are known to contract the disease, especially those species that are initially introduced to a new aquarium environment. But radical treatments like inducing copper into an established tank, which pretty much kills anything that's not a fish, is rather extreme. Yes, the illicit QT tank can be used to perform the copper treatment on all the fish, but I've seen where the transporting of all the fish in the main tank back into a QT (that you have to insure is chemically in sync with your display tank) ends up doing more harm to the fish than the copper treatment itself. Most of the time the fish end up dying waiting out the treatment period (some recommend a fallow tank for up to 6 weeks) and also waiting to insure the display tank is free of Ich (which you have the conspiracies that ich never leaves a tank once introduced.) Again, I've used the Ich Attack in a tank with a known Tang to have the disease, and the spots disappeared from the fish, and I never had any other "ich attacks" in that tank afterwards.
I find it comical that you and others in this thread seem to have gotten offended simply because I disagree with your standards for maintaining a saltwater aquarium. You want to use a QT, there's absolutely no problem doing that. But don't attack me simply because I provide a different perspective on the subject. If you think every newbie should setup a QT as a standard practice for having a saltwater display tank, create a fund and provide the cash to those that may not be able to afford one.

 

[aggiealum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tthemadd1 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526528
Wow you are why I dislike forums in general. Get of your soapboxes and help our friend with the problem.
We get it you both have egos that define your techniques. Really we all get it.
So let us all know your updates when your ready and hopefully you were able to get some good information out of this argument.
I personally agree with everything Flower stated on the subject. Her suggestions should provide the information the OP requested, and it's up to the OP to determine whether any other ideas or updates are required.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526609
As far as ich, I whole heartedly think it is a myth to some degree. Yes, certain species that become stressed (i.e. the Tang family) are known to contract the disease, especially those species that are initially introduced to a new aquarium environment. But radical treatments like inducing copper into an established tank, which pretty much kills anything that's not a fish, is rather extreme.
Hello Aggie,

ICH is not a disease, it is a parasite. Tangs are easier stressed then many fish, and therefore the parasite goes for the weakest first and populates to the point of killing every fish in the tank. We use hospital tanks to treat all the fish, and leave the display EMPTY for 6 to 8 weeks to insure the parasite is dead without a host. If you put copper in the display, you kill every invert and coral. That's why the RADICAL extreme treatment is done in a separate tank....never, ever treat the display.
The PARASITE lives on fish only, we quarantine a fish for a few weeks to be certain the parasite is not present, then we add the healthy fish to the display. Once you have a stocked tank, there is no reason to run a QT continually. Rather keep a sponge in the sump, or you can use established media from your canister or HOB ... simple as doing a water change ... Remove water from the display and fill the QT, add an air line attached to a piece of PVC pipe via rubberband and your instant already to go hospital or quarantine tank is all set up. (paint the bottom outside black, or have a dark towel to set it on) last, add a small HOB with the established media.
Lets say by sheer luck you don't have any signs of a parasite in your new reef...one more fish and it's all stocked. That last fish however has the parasite, and within a few short weeks the tank is infested. The only thing you can do now is to transfer ALL of your fish out...but a 10g won't do will it? Now, you have a pickle of a problem. All that grief could have been avoided...if you had quarantined that one...last ...fish.
The MYTH has killed off entire stocks of fish in the people tanks...they usually just suffer and watch each fish die off, and then after the last one is gone...they wait 6 to 8 weeks and start all over again, but this time they QUARANTINE EVERYTHING!!!! The water itself could contain the parasite if the coral or invert purchased, had been in the tank with other fish.
There are other diseases, and other parasites, but nothing as devastating as the Ichthyophthirius multifilis parasite (AKA ICH)

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526609
There's always opposite opinions to any viable solution ( 100% agree with you) . I simply disagree with the premise that having a QT is some form of requirement (who said it was a requirement????)for anyone getting into this hobby. You seem to think it's taboo to have one, and if anyone suggests otherwise is committing some form of blasphemy (Pretty sure, I said two times that if you don't run a Qt that it was fine and lots of folks have been successful not running one). I've been in this hobby for over 20 years now, so I think my experience on the subject has some merit. The initial costs of starting even a 55 can be intimidating, and I find it pointless to spend even more for a device that has it's limited uses if you maintain your aquarium to the recommended specifications that are readily available at a reputable LFS, and now online (including this site).
As far as ich, I whole heartedly think it is a myth to some degree. Yes, certain species that become stressed (i.e. the Tang family) are known to contract the disease, especially those species that are initially introduced to a new aquarium environment. But radical treatments like inducing copper into an established tank, which pretty much kills anything that's not a fish, is rather extreme. Yes, the illicit QT tank can be used to perform the copper treatment on all the fish, but I've seen where the transporting of all the fish in the main tank back into a QT (that you have to insure is chemically in sync with your display tank) ends up doing more harm to the fish than the copper treatment itself. Most of the time the fish end up dying waiting out the treatment period (some recommend a fallow tank for up to 6 weeks) and also waiting to insure the display tank is free of Ich (which you have the conspiracies that ich never leaves a tank once introduced.) Again, I've used the Ich Attack in a tank with a known Tang to have the disease, and the spots disappeared from the fish, and I never had any other "ich attacks" in that tank afterwards.
I find it comical that you and others in this thread seem to have gotten offended ( I was never offended!!). simply because I disagree with your standards for maintaining a saltwater aquarium. You want to use a QT, there's absolutely no problem doing that (thanks, This was basically my point, if you want to run one great if not... That's fine too). But don't attack me ( I apologize for the fact that you thought you were being attacked, it was not my intention to make you feel attacked!!) simply because I provide a different perspective on the subject. If you think every newbie should setup a QT as a standard practice for having a saltwater display tank, create a fund and provide the cash to those that may not be able to afford one.
I think you missed my point completely and have overly read into a simple post. I have no issue with anyone who does not run a QT (that's why I referenced a lot of hobbyists who have ran tanks successfully without having a QT). I have ran Display tanks with and without having a QT, and both worked (to a point). Yes, a QT costs a lot of extra money to setup, and if you are setting up 55g tank a QT could take up a decent portion of your budget.

My only point was telling newbies that you don't need a Quarantine Tank is not a safe idea. Could they get away with not having one (because of budget concerns, or any other reason)??? They sure could. But its a good idea to set up one, and that there are benefits (as with anything there are benefits and concerns) to setting up a QT.
Again, Sorry that you thought you were being attacked. I know that there are many different ways of doing things in this hobby and that's what makes it great.
My motivation was to show any random newcomer to SW fish keeping, that setting up a quarantine tank is a good idea and has benefits. I would hate to hear back from some newbie who lost every fish in their tank from something that could have been prevented because they read a thread where they were told that setting up a QT waste of time and money (I am not saying that you said this).

 

[jay0705]

From my point of view. You bring up the cost of setting up a tank an awful lot. Saltwater tanks are not cheap. Its that simple. Whether your wealthy or u save your money up to buy what u want they are not cheap. So if u want to do it as cheap as u can that's fine. But when your talking to people w 100plus gallon tanks and thousands of dollars worth of live stock in them. Yes every precaution should be taken to ensure the inhabitants safety and in the end your wallet.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay0705 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526636
From my point of view. You bring up the cost of setting up a tank an awful lot. Saltwater tanks are not cheap. Its that simple. Whether your wealthy or u save your money up to buy what u want they are not cheap. So if u want to do it as cheap as u can that's fine. But when your talking to people w 100plus gallon tanks and thousands of dollars worth of live stock in them. Yes every precaution should be taken to ensure the inhabitants safety and in the end your wallet.
I don't understand why anyone would think a QT is expensive...

I happen to think NOT purchasing a QT setup to be much more expensive.
The entire set up costs less then $35.00 from Foster and Smith
You can get 25 foot of air line for $2.39
A 10g tank for $13.00 (Walmart or *****)
Air pump Fusion $6.99 or Whisper $5.59
A piece of PVC costs around 49 cents.
The little HOB filter is another $11.99

 

[jay0705]

That's my point. In the big picture a qt is penny's compared to the over all investment.

 

[natethenizzle]

The biggest single fact that I've learned in the 5-6 years of doing Salt Water is that everything is trial and error and its like having kids, just do whatever works for you or what you feel is most comfortable for you. Everyone has their own methods/styles, try something, if you like it and you're comfortable with it go with it. When I was just learning this all from my wife, she was taught by her parents one style of acclimating fish (bag in tank, add small cup of tank water every 20 minutes for over an hour and then introduce to tank) and using that style never had an issue. After gaining some experience myself, I prefer a homemade drip method that I am comfortable with and we have not had an issue yet with that style. Some people will swear by sub tanks for filtration or at least a cannister style but we have tried a Fluva cannister for our 75 gallon tank and had all sorts of trouble with it. We went back to traditional back mounted filter and have not had any issues with it. The equipment you buy will eventually hold you back in terms of fish and/or coral that you want. Some people will not run a tank unless they have a protein skimmer, we have never had one and we still able to enjoy our tank with little issues. The nice thing about doing salt, is that once you've had it established for a time, its healthy, running, you can step up and add specific items to your tank to get that certain fish or that specific coral that you've always wanted to try. I am sorry for you that some people talk the way they do. What that is the awesome thing about a "hobby" some are in it just for fun and experience, and some people take it to the extreme. It is up to you to realize how far down the rabbit hole you'd like to go!

 

[bridget111188]

Thank you Flower for all your information. As for the QT bickering... I'm going to ask everyone to stop arguing! Please stick to the 13 questions I have asked. I will be setting up a QT no questions asked. Also thank you again Flower for the Walmart QT shopping list.

 

[kiefers]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridget111188 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526703
Thank you Flower for all your information. As for the QT bickering... I'm going to ask everyone to stop arguing! Please stick to the 13 questions I have asked. I will be setting up a QT no questions asked. Also thank you again Flower for the Walmart QT shopping list.
Isn't that what I like said a while back ago? Lol..... Geesh

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridget111188 http:///t/395938/fish-quantity-and-type-for-the-55/20#post_3526703
Thank you Flower for all your information. As for the QT bickering... I'm going to ask everyone to stop arguing! Please stick to the 13 questions I have asked. I will be setting up a QT no questions asked. Also thank you again Flower for the Walmart QT shopping list.
LOL...Only the tank was Walmart...the rest I looked up and found on-line at Foster and Smith pet supplies. I was in on the bickering...I deleted my post because it was getting to be just too much. I left an I'm sorry, and thought about hitting the ignore button. The leaving the fish in a bag until dark still kind of has me wondering, but to each his own.