Flame Angel in trouble!

[wattsupdoc]

I did not see my flame angel at all yesterday, I found him this morning laying on the bottom breathing rapidly. He has loss of color, red gills, and is dying! :scared:
125 gal fowlr
blonde naso tang,
bangaii card
1 blue reef chromis
black cap basslet
longnose butterfly
ammo 0
trites 0
trates 0
temp 82
ph low as im lowering SG as I'm doing hypo as of yesterday(this was in part due to the disapeearance of the angel and I saw a few small specks on the LNB and the BRC yesterday.
I noticed his color looked faded a few days ago but I have been feeding with garlic and he's been pigging out. I think he may have a bacterial infection, because of the gills, but I dunno

.I will be heading out here in about an hour and will pick up any meds I may need. PLEASE HELP.
I never saw any spots at all on the angel. I will pick up a 10 gallon for a hospital tank, but i need to know what might be wrong so I can properly medicate him if need be.

 

[shogun323]

Are you doing hypo in your display tank? That would be bad news for your Live Rock, especially if you plan on dosing meds.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I dont have any LR at this time, sorry for that. It's all base rock so far with no critters. All inverts that were in tank have been removed. I think i need to treat with maracyn 2, but i need confirmation.

 

[wattsupdoc]

why do I not see this in the disease and treatment forum?

 

[wattsupdoc]

He's still alive, but my BRC died! Yes, I'm doing hypo in the DT. I just got a 10g Qt and the FA is in there right now. I couldnt find the Maracyn two in the Sw flavor, but I have some E.M. Erthromycin, treating the FA with that. I'm thinking maybe I should treat them all. Can I do hypo and treat with this stuff? If this is in fact bacterial infection, will it live in my DT? Are my other fish at risk?

Heres what i'm thinking, give the FA time in the QT himself and see how he does. If he makes it then introduce the others to the QT and continue hypo and antibiotic treatment in the QT. Also continue the Hypo of the 125 in order to purge the ich from it, but should I treat the DT with antbiotic also? If I should treat the DT also then I wont move the others, but still leave the FA in the QT to heal without stress from the other fish.

Please help.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Is there anyone alive is this section?
My flame angel is still alive.

 

[beth]

Is your tank fish only? You can not do hyposalinity in a tank with inverts and live rock. You must adjust the pH as you needed, when lowering salinity.

 

[wattsupdoc]

The inverts have been removed and the rock is only base rock at this point, I havent introduced any inverts(pods etc.) Hypo is currently down to .019, working to get that down by tomorrow afternoon. I have a refractometer. The flame angel is in a 10g QT at 1.023 currently, treated with E.M. Erthromycin. He has been breathing heavily and laying on the bottom all day, I'm so stressed over this. I feel helpless to help him. Honestly, I dont think he'll make it, but i want to give him a chance. I'm addressing the ph with high surface agitation and baking soda as needed. Doing 3 to 5 gallon dilutions at a time.
Is the Erthromycin any good?
Do you think from my description that I'm on target with him?
The BRC was pretty heavily infected yesterday and I suspect why hes gone today.
I never noticed ANY specks on the flame angel.
Can I do hypo at the same time as medicating?
Should i medicate the DT also? I'm afraid of it killing my bio-filter.
Thank you SOOOO much Beth for responding.

 

[92protruck]

Hate to bear bad news, but Beth has always told me not to medicate in an uncycled QT. The antibiotic will kill what little bio filter there is and may cause anywhere from an ammonia spike to total crash.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I understand the bio filter stuff, but the only choice I have right now is to medicate the FA in SOMETHING. I'll deal with the ammo appropriately in the QT. It wont be too hard to do in there. The filter I have on it is from my 65 and hasnt been cleaned in about a month.
Medicating in the Dt is my bigger concern.

 

[92protruck]

I don't think you should ever medicate the DT. Again, based on research I've done on here. I had the same or similar problem as you. I used Maracyn 2 in the QT and it crashed killing all but one fish. You are btwn a rock and a hard spot with the secondary bacterial infection and no cycled QT. Hope everything works out.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Cycled??? Whats there to cycle in a QT??? The glass? A pipe maybe?? The filter I have on there is allready rich in aerobic bacteria. Besides, the antibiotics are gonna kill any bacteria anyways, so it's irrelivant whether I let it set for 6 weeks or use the sponge. I'm gonna be battling it anyways. But, yes I'm in a real hard spot here and need some HELP!

 

[wattsupdoc]

He's dead!

 

[sepulatian]

Whatsupdoc, I am so sorry I haven't responded earlier, I have been ill. You are in hypo now in the DT? What fish died? Have you added any meds to the DT?

 

[wattsupdoc]

Thank you sooo much for replying.

I hope you get feeling better.
I am still coming down on the DT. SG is at .0019.
The Flame angel died, also I lost the Blue Reef Chromis.
I havent added any meds to the DT yet. I'm scared to, and I'm scared not to!

The QT is empty now I was considerindg dropping the SG and matching the PH in the QT and adding the remaining fish in it. But then I'll have a 3-4 inch blonde naso, a 3-4 in longnose butterfly, a bangaii cardinal, and a blackcap basslet all in a 10 gallon. But they shouldnt need to be in there but for 5 days. I dont know what to do. It's gonna cost a small fortune to medicate the 125. Plus it'll kill my bio filter.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
Thank you sooo much for replying.

I hope you get feeling better.
I am still coming down on the DT. SG is at .0019.
The Flame angel died, also I lost the Blue Reef Chromis.
I havent added any meds to the DT yet. I'm scared to, and I'm scared not to!

The QT is empty now I was considerindg dropping the SG and matching the PH in the QT and adding the remaining fish in it. But then I'll have a 3-4 inch blonde naso, a 3-4 in longnose butterfly, a bangaii cardinal, and a blackcap basslet all in a 10 gallon. But they shouldnt need to be in there but for 5 days. I dont know what to do. It's gonna cost a small fortune to medicate the 125. Plus it'll kill my bio filter.

No, no, no. Do not medicate the display. You will ruin your tank. You need a QT that can support these fish for 6 weeks! I don't know where you got a few days from. You can medicate the heck out of these fish, if they go back into the display before 6 weeks the ich cycle starts again. Please tell me what all is in your tank. Sometimes it is easier to pull out rocks and inverts into a rubbermaid tub (no bioload) than it is to squeeze large fish into an uncycled qt for 6 weeks. It means constant water changes and your fish will still stress from all of the fluctuations. How much rock and inverts do you have?
P.S. I am feeling MUCH better tonight, thank you!!!

 

[wattsupdoc]

I wasnt reffering to treating the ich for only a few days.
The DT is perfectly Ok to Hypo in it. The inverts which were in there have been pulled and placed in my fuge on my 65. The rock is all base rock the sand is live only in bacteria form. I know a hypo is going to take some time. But I'm afraid the Flame angel had a gill infection. I NEVER saw ANY Ick on him. AT ALL. He did have some fin and tail rot after he was removed, that became evident. So I treated him today with E.M erythromycin, an antibiotic. To no avail. Now I'm worried about a bacteria in my DT. And dont know how to address it. The antibiotic states a 5 day treatment. It's a form of penicyllin. I dont want to loose any more fish.
Heres what I'm thinking.
The next water change i do on the 125 I will replace the water in the QT. Remove all the fish and place in it. They will allready be acclimated so no worries there. Leave them in the QT for the 5 day treatment. Continue to bring the SG down in the 125 till it reaches .009. When the treatment is done in the QT ThenI'll match the QT with the 125 and place the fish back in the 125, for the duration of the hypo. But I'm worried about potential bacteria remaining in the DT. I guess I could leave to QT set up and matched to the 125 for the duration and remove and remed in the QT if need be. But these symptoms hit so fast, I dont know if I'll catch it in time.
Does this sound like a workable plan?
You must be superwoman, you just replied to like 9 thread in less than an hour!

 

[sepulatian]

Whao, do you have ich in the display? Tell me the circumstances (with detail) about the flame. Bacterial infections are commonly caused by lack of nutrition, poor water quality, or because the fish is new and stressed. Most are not contagious at all. Please back up the info and give me a brief on what has been going on, including how long you had the fish.
And yes, I am superwoman

J/K I have been sick and not on the boards where advice was apparenty needed. Now it is time for me to catch up!

 

[wattsupdoc]

The flame angel, the naso tan, the blue reef chromis and the black cap basslet, were all purchased from SWF.com3 weeks and 3 days ago. All added at once. I know you idiot! But everybody has been fine up until now. The 125 cycled a couple months ago and I've been prepping the tank for a large addition. By using filters from my 65 wich were heavy in gunk, feeding the tank heavily and letting the bacteria grow. I have not seen any ammo or trites or trates in this tank since the cycle. Realize it's a 125 and with about 150lbs of limestone baserock. My params never fluctuated, except the temp 2 weeks ago got up to 89ish in the 125 when the temp came up and the air wasnt on. I caught it that day and corrected it slowly. It's been a steady 82 since and everydody has been eating well and no aggression in the tank. The flame angel just recently started showing interest in the algea sheets. I feed, marine quisine,green algea sheets, flakes, meaty pellets, and a home recipe of shrimp/scallops/oysters(uncooked not canned but shelled)with garlic gaurd. I use garlic gaurd every time I feed which is twice a day. 4 days ago I started with fresh garlic minced up and soaked for about 10 min. with the food. Probably about the time I started noticing the Flame Angel loosing some color. But he still ate very well. As well this is about the time he started showing interest in the algea sheets. Last week I noticed the LN butterfly looked like he had a dusty covering on him. This was just after feeding my home recipe. Which I used a food processor to make and some of it is chopped pretty fine, so I thought it may be that, as it does cloud up the water a little when fed. Also i noticed the BRC had it too. Some spots but nothing that was real evident of ich. I did purchase a refractometer in case I saw it again. So about 5 day go by and no spots, which i know is the nature of the ich beast. but then yesterday(thurs.) the FA goes MIA, and I didnt see him all day, I noticed the LNB and BRC looked poor again so I started prepparing to do hypo. Actually started to bring it down last night and removing all inverts. I could not find the FA anywhere and figured I'd give him a day before I tore the rocks apart looking for him. This morning there he was. On the sand bed, breathing hard, laying on his side flushed of most color with red looking gills. I went today and got the 10 to medicte him in and treated him with the antibiotic I stated. I have only seen 1 spec on the blonde naso tang and none on the bangaii or basslet...yet.
There you have it, slap me and call me stupid if you like, just please help.

 

[sepulatian]

I would never call you stupid! You did add alot of fish at once. Some of them, like the angel need natural sources of food like mature LR. I think you added too many fish that require natural grazzing all at once. The tang most certainly needs to be able to graze. If all you have is limestone, my dear, you made a very grave error. The fish you purchased would have been fine in your tank in about 6-8 months with actual LR that is mature. Limestone is just plain rock that can be pulled out of someones yard. It s not porous at all. That is not base, that is a slab to stack base and LR on. Lime is also likely to raise your calcium and PH. Watch that. My advise for now is to get some real LR, and do NOT add any more fish for awhile. If you do see spots on your remaining fish, then hypo is needed. We will walk you through it. Use this time to set up a permanent QT tank. You will be so thankful for it!!!! QT all new arivals, including corals and inverts.