Florida Bans all Large Constictors

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3264594
Its an attempt to regulate human behavior by reacting to specific issues with drastic and media-driven dramatized laws, rather than just appropriately regulating in such a way that little to no illegal behaviors (such as releasing a burm into the everglades) would occur.
Big snake owners in FL overall aren't going to just drive to GA. GA is only reasonably accessible to people living in Northern FLA. With the law, the snake industry will drop drastically in FL. Prey manufacture's will virtually go out of business. And, if you can't get food for your snakes....then you can't keep a snake. This will effect keeping all snakes, not just giants.
I don't think it'll have that big of an effect on the reptile market in Florida. Smaller snakes like Kings and Corn Snakes don't have the same diet as an large python. Once a python gets over 3 feet, they begin eating rats. Smaller snakes don't go bigger than large mice. If you have someone that actively raises pythons, they ususally get into breeding their own snakes. Anyone I know that has more than two snakes usually starts breeding their own food. Mice and rats proliferate faster than roaches. My daughter had a small King, and I ended up buying a breeding pair of small hamsters. Within a month, I had over 10 hamsters continually running in a cage. I ended up having to give some away because the King wasn't eating them fast enough.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3264616
Yeah but what good will banning the snakes do? They are already in the glades. They need to deal with that. I still like the idea of just making people lojack the big snakes and worry about getting them out of the wild.
You ban them so even more don't get added to the population that already exists. Apparently snake owners in Florida 'don't get it'. When it comes to pythons, a majority of the people who buy them think they are 'neat' when they are small and only a foot long. They get them for their kids because they are a very low maintenance pet. All of a sudden, the snake gets up to 5 - 6 feet, and if they aren't constantly handling them, they become very aggressive and start biting and attacking. So what does the snake owner do? Makes a day trip down to the Everglades and dumps into some part of the park. Problem solved for them.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3264620
You ban them so even more don't get added to the population that already exists. Apparently snake owners in Florida 'don't get it'. When it comes to pythons, a majority of the people who buy them think they are 'neat' when they are small and only a foot long. They get them for their kids because they are a very low maintenance pet. All of a sudden, the snake gets up to 5 - 6 feet, and if they aren't constantly handling them, they become very aggressive and start biting and attacking. So what does the snake owner do? Makes a day trip down to the Everglades and dumps into some part of the park. Problem solved for them.
I am sure there were a few idiots turning snakes loose but the evidence points to a lot of the problem coming from snakes that escaped when the hurricane came through and wiped everything out. Thats when all the exoctic birds got lose. I just don't see the point in a ban, they should concntrate of getting the snakes rounded up. No skin off my nose, not a snake person since I was a little kid and used to catch kings.

 

[crypt keeper]

This moron is why they are being banned. Also he needs to be impeached like asap. If i were a sceintist Id have him impeached yesterday. The lies that spew out of his mouth. Snakes dont have barbed teeth. They cant get to your feet from x amount in split second. Nothing moves that fast. They arent 100,000 like being said. Snakes have about 40 eegs a clutch if they are licky. People have been breeding snake sfor 30+ years have never seen a 100 eeg clutch. He just lies to strike fear in people and uses that fear on people who are too ignorant to know otherwise and boom you have a law.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EIxH-5SQtc

 

[beth]

Ok, I know that the belief is that the snakes in the Everglades resulted from Hurricane Andrew and animals escaping from destroyed pet shops; however, the Everglades is not exactly next to a populated area in So. FL, especially 20 years ago. I don't think Burmeses hiked across busy roads and highways to finally end up far away from human populations centers, making their way to the Everglades. The biggest devastation occurred in South Dade County which is the least populated area of the "Miami" area anyway--not exactly hopping with pet shops.
In other words, I think a lot of dumping actually did go on. But, I don't know for sure. No hurricanes caused the overrun of iguana population; that happened from dumping pets, pure and simple....so, take it from there if you will when considering how the burms ended up in the Everglades.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3264666
Ok, I know that the belief is that the snakes in the Everglades resulted from Hurricane Andrew and animals escaping from destroyed pet shops; however, the Everglades is not exactly next to a populated area in So. FL, especially 20 years ago. I don't think Burmeses hiked across busy roads and highways to finally end up far away from human populations centers, making their way to the Everglades. The biggest devastation occurred in South Dade County which is the least populated area of the "Miami" area anyway--not exactly hopping with pet shops.
In other words, I think a lot of dumping actually did go on. But, I don't know for sure. No hurricanes caused the overrun of iguana population; that happened from dumping pets, pure and simple....so, take it from there if you will when considering how the burms ended up in the Everglades.
What I read was the snakes were more commonly sighted in the years following the hurricane. Maybe just a coincidence but to me that seems to indicate they are there more as a result of excape than release.

 

[beth]

Yes, but, coincidentally, the reptile hobby also took off around that time. It could be many snakes escaped from homes resulting from the storm, however, again, I tell you that the human population is not all that close to the Everglades in most situations. Especially 20 years ago. Those Burms had one long hike to make! And, they must of known what direction to head to as well....Perhaps there were some breeders located close to the Everglades? That area was literally flattened by the Hurricane. It looked like an atomic bomb dropped. How did so many snakes survive that and then make their way to the Everglades?
This is what it looked like for as far as the eyes could see.

 

[crypt keeper]

20 years ago is a very long time. You get 100 burms in the wild they can reproduce fast. Lets just say you have 50/50 male to female ratio. A lot of those snakes were a few years old. Its 3 years it takes for most large female constrictors to breed and 18 months for males. Do they math. 40 babies is average in a clutch. 2000 babies over a 3 year period possibly. Do that math in 3 years again. Now majority of babies wouldnt survive. Fox, raccoons. Gators. You name it will chow down on a baby. Even if 10 babies from every clutch survive you can get pretty big numbers fast. Times that by 20 years I get the fear and the issues that have arrive. I just dont see 100,000 animals though. Its very large area but at the sametime its not Texas. If they were that populated people would be finding them more and more. You would hear about them crossing roads. Turning up in peoples pools like gators.
personally regulation too me would had been 100% okay. IMO you should be 21 own your own house and have each animal documented. Snake breeders and Pet Store owners should take 100% of the blame. You know what these animals can be and what they can do. Dont sell an 2 foot long baby burmese to little Timmy. Its flat out retarded

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3264677
Yes, but, coincidentally, the reptile hobby also took off around that time. It could be many snakes escaped from homes resulting from the storm, however, again, I tell you that the human population is not all that close to the Everglades in most situations. Especially 20 years ago. Those Burms had one long hike to make! And, they must of known what direction to head to as well....Perhaps there were some breeders located close to the Everglades? That area was literally flattened by the Hurricane. It looked like an atomic bomb dropped. How did so many snakes survive that and then make their way to the Everglades?
This is what it looked like for as far as the eyes could see.

I knew a guy who went down there to do construction work after the storms. He said pictures didn't do it justice. As far as the snakes dunno. Could just be someone making excuses for stupid owners but it made a lot of sense following their timeline.

 

[beth]

Yeah, pictures don't do justice really. It can't capture the scale of devastation. Even roads were destroyed.
Paul....there is no human population, except rangers and tourists, in the Everglades. How does escaped snakes make over to the Glades? That is my point. Snakes would have to survive the destruction of the hurricane, then do quite a hike over to the Park. Maybe some did, but I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that many were dumped there....and still are dumped there. Heck, idiotic morons dump their poor dogs out there!

 

[crypt keeper]

Well its been 20 years. Its not that far fetched. Again i dont think there are 100,000. Lets just say 20,000 which is a crap load of snakes. How far does a snake travel in a day? They can live for a long time. Im sure a few morons dumped them. Im not saying they didnt. At the samtime 20 years ago how populated was Florida? hell you could probably drive 20 minutes from one town to the next. So a 50 snakes which isnt that many start a long travel down a pretty smooth path. In 1 year a snake with a healthy diet can grow 10 feet. Not much will mess with a 10 foot snake. Except a big gator of about 5 feet or more. Again 20 years is a long long time.
Surving a hurricane is probably very easy when you dont have bulding falling on your head and electricity pumpin through your body. Look at the all the animals that survive them every year. Snakes can swim very very well and can hide in some crazy ass places.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3264714
Snakes can swim very very well and can hide in some crazy ass places.
Tell me about it. My first snake escaped shortly after we got him. We searched every nook and cranny. I turned beds upside down, emptied all closets, pulled out all appliances, searched every drawer, every cabinet, etc., etc., etc.....about 5 times altogether. Nukem was nowhere to be found. 6 months later my son was sleeping and heard some movement near him. The snake was crawling on the floor next to him. He apparently never even left the room he was in. I just don't even know where he could have been. I mean I searched everything except inside the walls! Even checked the central ac vents (on the ceiling)!
This same troublemaker got loose in my mom's house following Hurricane Welmia. We had traveled down to the Keys to help with post hurricane cleanup. All the Keys had flooded out, including my mom's house. I almost went nuts when he came up missing because the house was just a disaster and there was no way to do much searching. Thank goodness he poked his out from under a chest of drawers a few days later, mom saw him and called me on my cell. I raced home and got the bugger (my favorite snake). I was never so relieved and overjoyed. To say I was near hysterical over loosing this naughty boy would be an understatement.

 

[crypt keeper]

I love the passion beth. its people like you that should speak up. They dont understand that just because its animal love by few its still loved and loved very much.
Hell Look these are new pics. In just 7 months.
Im 5 10 and like a 1/4 inch. Damn it they count!

This was him when i bought him just 7 months ago.

I have really become connected with this guy. I have two other snakes and another on the way. Andy has my other one. I just love this dude. he is a very normal snake but he is very trusting very tame and loves being handled. I ciould never imgaine just dumping him or ever selling him even if I have zero reason too breed him.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3264698
Yeah, pictures don't do justice really. It can't capture the scale of devastation. Even roads were destroyed.

I was there, well north Miami (Miami Lakes). Our devastation was limited to downed trees and power.
Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3264714
At the samtime 20 years ago how populated was Florida? hell you could probably drive 20 minutes from one town to the next.
South Florida's population boom was in full swing well before Andrew. Miami-Dade specifically was mostly built-up by then. Most of the population rise post-Andrew has come from Western Broward, which might related to Beth's point.
Beth's point, about the growth of the hobby, I would love to see if there's any data on that. Stopping and reflecting, it seems like every conceivable hobby has grown exponentially since the end of the 80's. Home theater/audio, who doesn't have a nice setup these days? Radio control cars/planes/trains, it went from a couple people who built stuff in their garage, to a billion-dollar industry. Let's not forget our own SW fish hobby. I bet there's even more people collecting stamps/coins then decades ago.

 

[ironeagle2006]

Your forgetting about all the Canals that the Snakes could have used to Swim to the Glades. Heck IIRC almost all of Miami Dade is conected with canals and most of them reach the glades. Snake gets into the canal could swim to the glades when it reached there Bang set for life.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3264735
I love the passion beth. its people like you that should speak up. They dont understand that just because its animal love by few its still loved and loved very much.
Hell Look these are new pics. In just 7 months.
Im 5 10 and like a 1/4 inch. Damn it they count!

This was him when i bought him just 7 months ago.

I have really become connected with this guy. I have two other snakes and another on the way. Andy has my other one. I just love this dude. he is a very normal snake but he is very trusting very tame and loves being handled. I ciould never imgaine just dumping him or ever selling him even if I have zero reason too breed him.
When my brother was in high school one of the biology teachers kept a big snake of some kind that would go for walks with him. The thing would slither behind him while he walked around the soccer field. I thought it was BS until there was a newspaper article about the guy and his pets, he had a tarantula and a skunk too.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3264614
Man, this analogy sounds just like you gun control logic.
OK, I'll bite (literally). You want to compare owning a dog to owning a large snake? Have you ever owned or handled a reptile like a python over 8 feet? I have. They aren't as receptive to commands you give to a dog like "Stay. Heel. Good boy". They sleep, they eat. That's it. Unless you're a very experienced snake handler, you don't even mess with certain species of pythons over 8 feet, even if you've handled them when they were small. Stick one out into the wild, and their only mission in life is to find a mate, and find prey to eat. The Florida region is not a natural habitat for pythons. When you take an animal out of their natural environment, you don't know how they will react.
Keep you kids out of the Everglades? Come on Darth. You know what I meant by that statement. There have been rare occassions where alligators have attacked small children playing on the banks of ponds, lakes, and rivers in Florida. Now they have to contend with very large snakes. Five to ten years ago, they didn't.
You still don't explain how this SOLVES the problem? It may not add to it.....true, I w3ill grant that. But we ban ownership of large snakes because the everglades are over run with 100,000 of them? And this reduces that number how? The snakes will still breed....They will still multiply and they will still be a problem.
This is like putting a bandaid on slit throat.....
Explain how it PREVENTS the snakes from multiplying in the wild and being a problem.
This law is nothing but shot over the bow for the proponents of this type of legislation. This is typical government mentallity driven by mass hysteria of the public. Not a logical reaction or solution to the problem. Just an "action" to show the masses, "Hey we care." And you buy into this crap which is what scqres me. Oh I am sure we will hear your typical response "we have to do something and start somewhere." real soon.
Here is a novel Idea, pay hunter to hunt and kill the snakes....destry egg clutches and so on. Atleast THAT would do some good toward the issue. Then to fund the program turn the skins into products to be sold to the public to fund it, or hell, sell them to a private clothing and handbag company at a reduced rate.
And yes, I have handled snakes...........while they do not listen, they are no different than the IGNORED dog in someones backyard that receives no human interaction. They are no different than the many strays running wild. YOUR DOG that can listen to commands is great. But you approach the snake from an irresponsible owner standpoint and then argue your point against my analogy from a responsible dog owner percpective. That can't work.
I am showing you there are just as many Irresponsible dog owners as Snake owners...so again...since we have MORE irrisponsible dog owners than snake owners should dog be banned. Remember there are far more dog bites/maulings/attacks per capita in this country by neglected/stray dogs, than Python attacks in all of Florida.
Hell, Just the other day in my neighborhood, someone's German shepard was loose, it hopped a fence, bit a child and killed a little maltese. Should my City ban German shepards?
This is my point....but I guess you can't see it...........

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3264854
You still don't explain how this SOLVES the problem? It may not add to it.....true, I w3ill grant that. But we ban ownership of large snakes because the everglades are over run with 100,000 of them? And this reduces that number how? The snakes will still breed....They will still multiply and they will still be a problem.
This is like putting a bandaid on slit throat.....
Explain how it PREVENTS the snakes from multiplying in the wild and being a problem.
This law is nothing but shot over the bow for the proponents of this type of legislation. This is typical government mentallity driven by mass hysteria of the public. Not a logical reaction or solution to the problem. Just an "action" to show the masses, "Hey we care." And you buy into this crap which is what scqres me. Oh I am sure we will hear your typical response "we have to do something and start somewhere." real soon.
Here is a novel Idea, pay hunter to hunt and kill the snakes....destry egg clutches and so on. Atleast THAT would do some good toward the issue. Then to fund the program turn the skins into products to be sold to the public to fund it, or hell, sell them to a private clothing and handbag company at a reduced rate.
It is as you say -- It stops the bleeding. First you stop the supposed source of the problem (uneducated and irresponsible snake owners), then you address the remaining issue as you well described. If there's no way to further add to the existing population of snakes in that region, you can then begin to contain and erradicate the population that exists.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3264858
It is as you say -- It stops the bleeding. First you stop the supposed source of the problem (uneducated and irresponsible snake owners), then you address the remaining issue as you well described. If there's no way to further add to the existing population of snakes in that region, you can then begin to contain and erradicate the population that exists.

Check my edit....
Stops the bleeding? how so? Are the going to have snake police? Are the going to monitor everyone's home? Are there going to be snake checkpoints at the state border? PEOPLE WILL STILL GET THEIR SNAKES.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3264860
Check my edit....
Stops the bleeding? how so? Are the going to have snake police? Are the going to monitor everyone's home? Are there going to be snake checkpoints at the state border? PEOPLE WILL STILL GET THEIR SNAKES.
I stated that unless you made some type of Border Patrol checkpoint at every entrance into Florida, there's no way you could regulate interstate transportation of reptiles into Florida itself. However, the ban will basically stop the sales of pythons within the state. So no Pet Store, snake breeder, etc. within the state will be able to purchase or breed pythons for sale. Like Beth said, it's unlikely you'd have someone as far south as The Everglades drive all the way to Georgia or Alabama just to buy a snake as a pet. I do agree they should make exceptions and allow what I would define as 'professional or expert' snake owners to purchase a license to own these types of snakes. They could make it mandatory to LoJack/chip them in case they escape from their habitats. These type of snake owners are the responsible type, and would never consider releasing their snakes in an unknown environment.
I see the reasoning behind the ban. Stop, or at least slow down the number of snakes being released into that area, and you have a better chance of eradicating the existing population. If you do nothing, you'll just see a contunation of the problem by irresponsible owners, and you'll never be able to catch up and get rid of the pythons plaguing that region.