? for broomer and/or sump refuge experts

[entice59]

well its not a question only for broomer but for people who know their stuff about sumps and refuge
my dad wants to convert his tank into a fish only tank and im the guy whos going to help set it up. Right now im trying to figure out what im going to do, i want to make a refuge. What i need is an over-flow, a return pump, light and a tank. Below is the diagram i made in 2 minutes but you guys get the idea.
The tank is a 55 gallon, no built in sump. So i was planning to buy a overflow box thing. Is a 15/10 gallon refuge okay? i cant fit a 20 gallon under the tank because the space is too small. One thing i dont understand when i shoot the water back in the tank from the return pump..... What do i use to hold the return tube or what attachment do i need? a spray bar?
im probably going to buy a prizm or a cpr bakpak. Prizm is cheaper though.... not worried about the noise either. I dont think i need a sump, i dont care that the heater is in the tank and i dont need a skimmer in the sump. Im going to still use my dad's emperor bio wheel filter thingy.(unless we really dont need it because of the skimmer and the refuge)
What do you guys recommend, no corals just small fish no large angels no triggers etc., i heard wet/dry systems werent that good for my tank....
I am open for suggestions
thanks and merry xmas

 

[fishfood]

The concept was to have a low flow through a fuge. Just recently Bang Guy posted some, non scientific, tests on flow rate in a fuge. (I think it was Guy) Anyway the results were that his caulerpa grew faster up to a certain amount of flow, thus probably taking out more nutrients. With that said you will have a fairly hi flow regardless because of the overflow. You have to decide how much water you want circulated and then buy an overflow accordingly. IMO the 15gal tank would be better than the 10. I have a 20 gal under my 55 but have it set up different. I wish i would have done it similar to your diagram. As for the return. You have to get a pump that is rated similar to the overflow. I never bought one(overflow box, I got my tank drilled) but would assume that they might list a specific pump for the overflow you buy. I have a mag 7 or 9 or something like that and have the plastic hose that you find at the lfs for the return and then i have lockline on the end of it to blow it in 2 different directions. I start the lock line on the back side of the tank and wrap it up over into the tank. I tried to suction it to the back of the tank but i don't think it is sticking any longer but the U shape created holds the thing in place. I have the flat head pieces on the end to spread out the current and the one has a corner partially out of the water so if the power goes out it doesn't siphon the water back into the fuge and flood it.
HTH

 

[broomer5]

Hi entice59
Here are my thoughts.
I firmly believe that a refugium is a great asset to a tank. I like having one ~ but the thing is ~ I really think they work best in concert with a sump, especially on a 55 gallon or larger tank.
Why ?
Well ...... you're going to be buying an external overflow. This is about the most costly part of the project. Most external overflows I've seen start out at the 1" drainline size, and are rated around 700 gph.
700 gph is going to be too high for a smaller refugium, so you'd have to either valve back the return pumps flow, or get a smaller return pump.
When you have low flow through the external overflow - the risk of small bubbles accumulating in the U tube increases dramatically. When air becomes entrapped in the U tube ~ it can break siphon ~ and cause the thing to fail.
When an overflow fails - somethings going to get wet and somethings going to go dry.
Floor wet ~ return pump dry.
Not good.
A 55 gallon tank stand will give you plenty of length ( 48" ) but is somewhat limited on width. Try to take advantage of the length.
I hate to keep bringing up the Rubbermaid option ~ but in tight spaces ~ they really do allow for a us to get a lot for the money.
With some simple pvc fittings, little bit of pvc pipe, some vinyl tubes and clamps and two longish Rubbermaid/Sterelite containers ~ you could fashion up a very nice reliable system that would give you some additional benefits.
You mentioned that you did not want to hide the heater ?
Why ?
You mentioned that you want a hang on the tank protein skimmer ?
Why ?
Once you have the external overflow - the rest of the stuff falls right into place.
Get a sump - hide the heater.
Get a sump - buy an insump skimmer.
Get a sump - run a lot of water through it.
Place your refugium a little higher than your sump and let gravity do it's thing. You can steal some of the water from your "larger" return pump and redirect it to your fuge.
I would strongly encourage anyone thinking of setting up a refugium to ALSO take the few extra steps and set up a sump as well. You gain so much more in the process - and you really don't have to shell out that much more cash.
In the end - you'll have more flexibility, the display tank will "look" cleaner with out all the equipment hanging back there and you can "move" some water through the system ~ insuring enough flow to keep bubbles from collecting in the U tube and while doing so, increase water circulation through the display tank.
If you want to get into the details of such a set up - just ask.
If you want to continue on with your original idea - that's fine too - just be prepared to address some issues that will restrict what you can do with it. Mainly - how do I move the right amount of tankwater through the refugium and still keep the overflow flowrate high enough to prevent siphon failure.

 

[entice59]

man thats a lot of thinking,
heres some questions
1.i dont mind the heater being in the main tank and a hangon, is there a specific reason i should hide these things?
2.you recommend me to make a sump and make a refuge? 2 seperate tanks?
3.in a power outage, wouldnt the siphon keep on going while the pump is off? meaning that my sump/refuge will over flow?
4.so do you recommend both a sump and a refuge? if so what would i need to buy?
5. how about a reptile tank, its glass and it rectangular, its much longer then wider, which i put into the cabnet. I can make barreriors and then make the refuge in the middle, with a insump skimmer(isnt insumps more expensive?)
6. So the flowrate of the overflow must be equal to that of the pump? can i use a powerhead to siphon the water through? instead of an overflow? why/why not?
7.Rubbermaid is a great thing to use, i agree, but i really want to do everything in one tank, im no expert at making or building sumps/refuges
8.how much do you think this will cost me, just an estimate
thanks broomer and fishfood for the info
heres a picture of the cabnet and the tank

 

[entice59]

another

 

[jumpfrog]

I tried the only refugium thing with my 72 bowfront. I regreted it. It was impossible to have good flow to ensure the u-tube stays well primed without creating a bubble problem and too much flow through the fuge. All in all it was more trouble than it was worth and I wound up dismantling the whole thing.
I'm just going to do frequent water changes to keep my reef's nitrates under control. Tank is more stable now and the animals appreciate that I no longer keep screwing with the tank trying to make it work.
Broomer is right on target with the sump thing. Best way to go but I'm not going to do it with my reef.
BTW, I have a slightly used Lifereef overflow ($99 new) for sale.
Good Luck and let us know what you do.

 

[entice59]

i found out i cant put a 15 gallon into my cabnet either, only 10 gallon tanks (x2), so what should i do now? how about a enhiem canister filter? do you recommend those? and intank refuges/or hang on, i know they arent as good as the ones under the tank but i have very limited space.
lowest overflow box i found was 300gph
can you answer my questions also? unless you are planing to lower the price, for 60 dollars more i can get a wetdry system with pump and overflow

 

[entice59]

bump

 

[broomer5]

entice59
If you can't do a glass tank - maybe try several smaller Rubbermaid plastic containers with bulkhead fittings, and plumbed together.
Water falls from overflow on display tank, to first container.
Then cascades over to middle container, and finally falls over to last container.
Return pump pushes it back up and round and round she goes.

 

[sduda]

Broomer, using the gravity feed approach, does this mean as long as I keep the diameter of the flow from one to the next consistent that I don't have to worry about the various pumps passing up or not keeping up and causing a flood/drought? Right now I have a wet/dry as a pseudo sump. I'd like to increase my total water quantity to aid with water stability primarily. I am assuming I would overflow into like a rubbermaid and then naturally overflow with the same diameter into my wet/dry which will automagically flow back up with my return line, no?

 

[entice59]

man, i dont think i would know how to do that exactly, i am deathly afraid of my power going out and the siphoning will keep on going without the pump working, making the tanks overflow...
That set up is really to advanced for me, would it be possible for just one rubbermaid, thats too much for me, i'll just use the emperor and buy a prizm, unless you can recommend a better filter that isnt too "advanced"... i will consider what you wrote and said later on, none of what you said will go to waste, drilling and sawing is not what i know how to do...
Thanks for the info broomer and the diagram, i saved it for when i feel like i am skilled enough to make such a setup, right now, i'll go for the intank refugium probably while using either a cpr bakpak or a prizm and still using the emporer filter
My dad really doesnt want me drilling holes into his tank since niether me or him knows how to drill anything properly.
If you have any "easier suggestions" i welcome them, if not thats fine
Broomer thanks for the great advice and tips, i am sorry if i wasted everyone's time

 

[broomer5]

entice59
That's cool
Never a waste of time. There are thousands of ways to run a saltwater tank. Whatever you feel comfortable doing is always the best way to go.
As long as you have good filtration, good water movement in the tank and keep your bioload proportional to your filtration - you'll be good to go !
Good luck !
*************************
sduda
Yeah - as long as you don't restrict flow anywhere in the system, water will move from higher elevation to lower elevation.
In your case - if you dumped tankwater into a large container under the tank - then had 2 bulkhead fittings, each being the same diameter as your drainline from your tank overflow - you could then run these two bulkhead fitting/pipes to your wet/dry pseudo sump.
Whatever volume you choose is up to you.
The flow will only be as high as the return pump you use.
Whatever the return pump is actually pumping into the tank - will be the flowrate through the rest of the system underneath.

 

[entice59]

do you know how many watts do you need to grow macro? i might just get the intank refuge

 

[zafirablanca]

59,
I am fairly the hobby and am taking alot of advice from this site.I set up the refugium and sump set-up in my cabinet (125 gallon aquarium). I teed off one of my overflows to the refugium and put two bulkheads to drain the refugium into the sump. I have the fuge on a plastic shelf (shelf is on 4 legs, a portion of a 4-tier plastic storage shelf) to elevate it inside my cabinet. It also makes for a great storage place under the fuge shelf. The water flow balances itself in regard to the fuge (which is a plastic rubbermaid type tub). The only risk of flooding the floor with water would be in the event of a power outage. But this is easily solved with drilling a hole on the water return pipe (just under the water level) to break the siphon if the power did go out. I have tested my system many times now, and it does not fail. I have my heater and my skimmer in the sump (20 gallon tall glass aquarium). I also placed baffles in the sump to reduce bubbles for the return water. My end compartment in my sump contains my return pump.
I do feel that this was worth the effort and really not that hard or expensive after all.
I hope this helps.
Good Luck.
-Christine

 

[entice59]

thanks for your input, space is very limited around the area of the tank, i'll think of something later on

 

[indy1]

I too am restricted by space under my stand. I have a 10g fuge with a 18w 10k NO bulb. I have a DIY overflow and a store bought return...I use a cap800 return pump and a ball valve on the return side to slow the flow down. When the power goes out, I have a small hole drilled in my return just above water level that breaks the siphon on the return side. I have my fuge marked for MAX water height to allow for some drainback in a pwer outtage. In the fuge I have an old unused whisper3 to create flow within the fuge. I used the whisper because I had it, U could use a small PH to do the same. Works well and the caluerpa is growing..
I really like broomers idea...It has my "wheels" turning again
Just thought I would share with you what I have and what works for me.

 

[krux]

Another option is to buy a hang on tank refugium, i believe ecosystem makes one designed for 60 gallonish size tanks. its gonna be a couple hundred dollars, but it means all you have to do is move your tank out from the wall a few inches, and hang it on the back. The kits come with appropriately sized lights.
For more information in the ecosystem style refugium, see FAMA issues sept, oct, nov, and dec at your local library.