Freedom of speech, but somethings just shouldn't be said

darth tang

Active Member
Joel Stein:
Warriors and wusses
I DON'T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.
I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.
And I've got no problem with other people — the ones who were for the Iraq war — supporting the troops. If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, then by all means, support away. Load up on those patriotic magnets and bracelets and other trinkets the Chinese are making money off of.
But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.
Blindly lending support to our soldiers, I fear, will keep them overseas longer by giving soft acquiescence to the hawks who sent them there — and who might one day want to send them somewhere else. Trust me, a guy who thought 50.7% was a mandate isn't going to pick up on the subtleties of a parade for just service in an unjust war. He's going to be looking for funnel cake.
Besides, those little yellow ribbons aren't really for the troops. They need body armor, shorter stays and a USO show by the cast of "Laguna Beach."
The real purpose of those ribbons is to ease some of the guilt we feel for voting to send them to war and then making absolutely no sacrifices other than enduring two Wolf Blitzer shows a day. Though there should be a ribbon for that.
I understand the guilt. We know we're sending recruits to do our dirty work, and we want to seem grateful.
After we've decided that we made a mistake, we don't want to blame the soldiers who were ordered to fight. Or even our representatives, who were deceived by false intelligence. And certainly not ourselves, who failed to object to a war we barely understood.
But blaming the president is a little too easy. The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying. An army of people ignoring their morality, by the way, is also Jack Abramoff's pet name for the House of Representatives.
I do sympathize with people who joined up to protect our country, especially after 9/11, and were tricked into fighting in Iraq. I get mad when I'm tricked into clicking on a pop-up ad, so I can only imagine how they feel.
But when you volunteer for the U.S. military, you pretty much know you're not going to be fending off invasions from Mexico and Canada. So you're willingly signing up to be a fighting tool of American imperialism, for better or worse. Sometimes you get lucky and get to fight ethnic genocide in Kosovo, but other times it's Vietnam.
And sometimes, for reasons I don't understand, you get to just hang out in Germany.
I know this is all easy to say for a guy who grew up with money, did well in school and hasn't so much as served on jury duty for his country. But it's really not that easy to say because anyone remotely affiliated with the military could easily beat me up, and I'm listed in the phone book.
I'm not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War, but we shouldn't be celebrating people for doing something we don't think was a good idea. All I'm asking is that we give our returning soldiers what they need: hospitals, pensions, mental health and a safe, immediate return. But, please, no parades.
Seriously, the traffic is insufferable.
 

petieaztec

Member
yeah he summed it up. he comes from money and will always have some one to have his back. what a shame that he does not appriciate his country.
 
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tizzo

Guest
I am thinking he is a closed minded moron. To assume that the "kids" who enlist do it blindly is his opinion, and it is a false opinion. You actually have to take a test to see if you are intelligent enough to join. If you pass that test and do not understand the purpose of "The Department of DEFENSE" then you got issues.
I was 19 when I joined and I was fully aware of what I was getting myself into. And I'm a GIRL!!!
Bin Ladin's recently found recording that said they would strike again, is enough reason to use our services. That is what they are for.
To think if a guy like that was here trying to start a riot cause HE ain't for the war...forget that, he aint for the soldiers, screw him.
I would not hesitate to shoot somebody who walked into my house and threatened me.
I would not hesitate to shoot somebody who walked into my country and threatened it.
That guy is just a wuss.
 

petieaztec

Member
yeah, it takes a real human (I mean man or woman) to go over there. I could never do it because i am too afraid. I thank god every day that there arepepole like our soliders that are over there and don't even hesitate so stand in line of duty. I was talking with a solider from back in the day and he said that it took them ten years of occupying Japan to make it the great country it is today. He said that the turn over will not happen over night.
 

dogstar

Active Member
but somethings just shouldn't be said
If its how someone feels then they should say it.....
I know many people dont agree but that does not mean people should not say what they think.
Either a person wants Freedom of speech or they dont. I dont know how it can be both ways.
Many people post/say things that I dont agree and I may or may not choose to say so, but I would never say that they should not say them.
 

jmick

Active Member
Originally Posted by petieaztec
so if i feel like making a racist comment that is ok with you?


Saying you are against the war and the current administration is vastly different then making racial comments
 

petieaztec

Member
how so? to me saying that the soliders over there are wimps is treason. that is what i say. i know what you are saying but to say that we are wasting lives and that the soliders are wimps is just strait offensive. that is the point i am trying to make. i would never say that somone who fights for their country is a wimp.
 

jmick

Active Member
Did you even read the article?
I'm sure I'd like the troops. They seem gutsy, young and up for anything. If you're wandering into a recruiter's office and signing up for eight years of unknown danger, I want to hang with you in Vegas.
But I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken — and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward.
 

dogstar

Active Member
Originally Posted by petieaztec
how so? to me saying that the soliders over there are wimps is treason. that is what i say. i know what you are saying but to say that we are wasting lives and that the soliders are wimps is just strait offensive. that is the point i am trying to make. i would never say that somone who fights for their country is a wimp.
Im defending free speech, and if something I say offends you then so be it. Just as I agree you have the RIGHT to say something that may offend me. Theres no law that says I cant say something that may offend you.
The point of the thread is that someone does not agree with what was said and thats fine but my point is they DO have the right to say it just as you have the right to say they should not say it. So whos right.
 
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tizzo

Guest
Immediately after the Trade Center got hit some Iraqi lady, on national TV was saying how she thought they deserved it and that americans had it coming.
Everyone in her vicinity was shocked, appauled, and wanted to kill her, and I specifically remember saying, that's her free speech. She can say that. That's what makes this country great.
But within the same month, they started saying we had to take down our "God bless the USA" marquis, and college kids had to yank the american flag out of their lockers, and any USA "paraphenelia" was not allowed to be displayed in most work places to to controversy and who it might offend.
Whether we like it or not, our freedom of speech, and freedom of expression is limited... But it seems only limited for the majority of people. Minority opinions like this are not only allowed to be screamed, but this country's "rights" make me hafta sit and listen to it while he shoves his "logic" down our ears.
:happyfish
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Free speech is a good thing... provided it comes from an educated opinion on the topic at hand.
The problem with free speech is when no one is able to publicly denounce dribble such as this article posted.
 

dogstar

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Free speech is a good thing... provided it comes from an educated opinion on the topic at hand.
The problem with free speech is when no one is able to publicly denounce dribble such as this article posted.
The Constitution does not give the right only to educated people.
I dont understand a problem if you yourself wants to denounce it. Go ahead. Whats stoping you? I hear the opposite of that guys feelings all the time, everywhere and hear on this SWF board too..
 

hot883

Active Member
Even if you are for the war or not, WE MUST support our troops. They choose to defend their/our country, they did not choose to go to Iraq necessarily. I know I didn't, but I went and did my job. I respect and love everyone of those brave service men and women (Thanks for your service Tizzo) that choose to enlist. I proudly served 20 years and retired at the prime old age of 37. Who's laughing now. Ha!
Anyway, those that bad mouth the service men and women should all pack up and move to Islamabad or someother sh--hole. Just my $.04
 
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tizzo

Guest
Wouldn't it be nice to mark their house to indicate that those are people who do not want the protection of the military, and they are free game to terrorists. If they don't want us protecting them, then we won't. Wouldn't that be nice!! Bet EVERYBODY'd love our military then.
Hot, way more thanks to you!! I was only in for two years. I enlisted during desert storm, I wanted to be a part of kicking that guys butt!! But we pulled out to quick.

20 years huh?? I bet you have awesome memories, and stories,
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Dogstar
The Constitution does not give the right only to educated people.
I dont understand a problem if you yourself wants to denounce it. Go ahead. Whats stoping you? I hear the opposite of that guys feelings all the time, everywhere and hear on this SWF board too..
That's my point... we CAN denounce it here.. I can denounce it all I want to.
This guy is published, however. That kind of uneducated, illogical, and offensively inclusive article should never have made it farther than the trash can.
As a society we're letting morons run the media... that's dangerous. We need reporters to report facts and media outlets to hire fact-finders; not propagandists.
 

darth tang

Active Member
This was not meant to spark a freedom of speech debate. But since it has I have a comment. It is no different than making a racial comment. It's sole purpose is to demean and chastize. To criticize and slander. All to incite a reaction. What is the difference, and why is one ok and not the other?
Joel Stein is a small time comedian I have occasionally seen on comedy central. Just to let you know his qualifications on making educated comments about the military and their behavior. To further prove this guy has no incling of military life or purpose I will post an interview he did the day this article was released.
Another point, he says in his article the troops that went to Kosovo to liberate people being slaughtered and controlled by a dictator was ok and those troops deserve our support. I wish to know the difference between what our troops did in Kosovo and Iraq is. They did the same thing.
Now to find the article/interview
 

darth tang

Active Member
Hugh Hewitt interviewing Joel Stein.
HH: Welcome now Joel Stein of the Los Angeles Times, columnist there. Hi, Joel. Welcome to the Hugh Hewitt Show.
JS: Hey, thanks for having me.
HH: You wrote a very controversial column today, and I want to talk about it. But first, some background. How long have you been a columnist for the L.A. Times?
JS: A little more than a year.
HH: All right. And you're a graduate of Stanford, right? What year?
JS: I graduated Stanford in '93.
HH: All right. Now who is your...this is a column about the troops that begins, "I don't support our troops." We'll get to the specifics in a second. But who is your closest family member or friend who is on active duty?
JS: That's an excellent question. I wouldn't say I have a very close friend. I would say only acquaintances. No family at all.
HH: Who are your acquaintances?
JS: There was a guy who works at Time, that's where I worked last, who quit to serve in the military.
HH: What's his name?
JS: (pause) You know, I'm blanking on his name. But your point is well taken that I don't have many people that I even know who are in the military.
HH: Do you have any, though, other than this guy at Time whose name you can't remember?
JS: Who are serving currently?
HH: Yeah.
JS: Or ever served?
HH: No, serving currently.
JS: Or only in Iraq?
HH: Active duty. Anywhere in the world.
JS: (pause) I'd say I've been pretty isolated from that. I mean, that's a point I made in the column.
 

darth tang

Active Member
HH: Now did you graduate with any of them? Did anyone from Stanford go into the military?
JS: We had some people who did ROTC off campus who went to the military, sure.
HH: Did you know any of them?
JS: I knew them at school, yeah.
HH: Do you remember their names?
JS: Yeah, there was this woman named Joanna. I went to high school with some people, obviously, Mary Ann Coo. Yeah, I know people, but like I said in the column, I have been pretty isolated. I don't have any close family...
HH: I'd love if you'd e-mail me their names, because I'd love to talk to them about your column. But let's go on. Did you support the troops when they invaded Afghanistan?
JS: I'm specifically talking about Iraq, and I don't support the troops right now.
HH: I know that. But I'm asking you, did you support them when they invaded Afghanistan?
JS: I've had really complicated emotions about Afghanistan. Obviously, I wanted to get Osama bin Laden and take out al Qaeda. I didn't know if that was the best method of doing it at the time.
HH: So, you didn't support them then?
JS: I did not support the invasion of Afghanistan, no.
HH: Did you support the troops when they were in the Pentagon on the morning of 9/11, when the terrorists hit it?
JS: Sure.
HH: And so, what's the difference between supporting them there and not supporting them in Afghanistan or Iraq?
JS: Well, I think I said it clear in the column, too. I don't have a...if you are for the war in Iraq, I think obviously, then you should support the troops. My problem is the people who are against the war and support the troops anyway, I think that's kind of an excuse. I think that's a way of making you feel better about your guilt, and I think that's kind of a lazy form of pacifism.
HH: Did you support the troops when they delivered, say, tsunami relief off of aircraft carriers and via supply ships?
JS: Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply in the column that I don't think we should have a military.
HH: I'm just wondering where you draw the line. So that mission is okay in your view?
JS: Yeah, I'm just simply saying that as a person whose against the Iraq war, I think all these I support the troop statements, I support the troops magnets, are a little hypocritical.
HH: But at the end, you said please, no parades. And so I'm wondering, would you give a parade to the people who delivered tsunami relief?
JS: Yeah, I'd support that. I would...sure.
HH: And would you give a, say, a parade to the troops that are right now delivering supplies to the 4 million Pakistanis who lost their homes in the earthquake?
JS: I guess you could throw a parade for lots of people.
HH: Would you go to that one?
JS: Sure.
 
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