Freshwater Dip....is it supposed to be like this?

lil.guppy

Active Member
So I guess the 2 tangs never really got over this ick. The weird thing is no one else in my tank has gotten it thank god.
Well I was able to catch them and do a freshwater dip and everything went great but I have one concern.
The blu tang almost looks 100% new except for maybe 3 or 4 spots. Yet my other tangs spots are whiter now and even ones I never noticed are showing. Will they eventually fall off? They were in the dip for 10 minutes.
I know there are parasites already in the water so will doing another dip in a week help?
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
The dip will knock some of them off. But it wont end the infestation. In fact, your tank is infested with it. You will not be able to eliminate it from the tank unless you take the proper measures. The ick will definitely fall off in a few days, but it will return in a couple to 3 weeks. Most likely with a vengeance. Please research the life cycle of the parasite. The wet web media is a good place for info. Read till your sick of it. Then do something...soon. I think Beth has a write up on it. Living with a known infestation is like living with a time bomb in the tank. Some are successful with keeping the fish happy and healthy. But as soon as a stress comes along....Likewise you will always have it even when you don't see the signs. Unless you go for 1 year without adding ANY new fish DNA to the tank, unless you take appropriate measures.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/3044684
Unless you go for 1 year without adding ANY new fish DNA to the tank, unless you take appropriate measures.
This is a new thought??? Can you elaborate?
It seems to me the more I stressed over my Blue Hippo Tang and tried to fix it, the worse things got. In fact I lost my royal gramma trying to get rid of ich.
I gave up and now if my tang gets a spot or rubs on the rocks I give it some shrimp lased w/ garlic juice. Nothing else in the whole tank ever looks sick, just that tang.
Tangs stress out easy. Mine stresses even with a water change. Yours will probably stress when you reintroduce it back to the DT, so another outbreak begins.
Unless you can let your tank sit without fish for 6-8 weeks...ich is now a part of life. I got an attitude and decided that if the fish die, they die, and then I will let the tank sit the 8 weeks. The dreaded disaster never happened. I didn't lose a single fish.
I can't put anymore fish in my tank; my tube anemone eats the new fish, or just stings it to death. The fish in the tank know to stay away from it but the new ones just don't and die. That's why i was wondering about the 1 year thing mentioned above.
 

sepulatian

Moderator
Are you certain it is ich and not lymphocysts spots? They are easily confused. Tangs are prone to ich and also get Lymph quite easily. Lymph is a viral infection that goes away quite easily with proper diet and tank conditions. Ich is a parasite. You will have to look closely with a magnifying glass to tell. Ich is a smooth, round, spot coming off of the flesh. Lymph is jagged and you can tell that it is coming out of the flesh.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/3044721
Are you certain it is ich and not lymphocysts spots? They are easily confused. Tangs are prone to ich and also get Lymph quite easily. Lymph is a viral infection that goes away quite easily with proper diet and tank conditions. Ich is a parasite. You will have to look closely with a magnifying glass to tell. Ich is a smooth, round, spot coming off of the flesh. Lymph is jagged and you can tell that it is coming out of the flesh.
I know what I had was ich, everything in the tank had it. I dosed it with medicine and it cured everything but the meds killed the gramma. I think I may have over dosed..too easy to do with that stuff. Anyway the tang still gets ich once in a while but nothing else.
What about the 1 year thing?
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Actually Flower, not to be mean, but the advise you are giving here is horrible. Just plain horrible. Though I know I've heard it given many times. It goes along with the idea that ich is a part of life and that all tanks have it.
The fact is it is not just a part of life. My tank is ich free and my fish have great immune systems. But they have the great immune systems in ADDITION to being parasite free. This is like having your pet dogs ( that you loved so dearly) bed laying right next to a rattlesnake den and you only see the snake "every now and then", plus you've got some anti venom if in case it does bite it. Wouldn't you rather kill the snake? Even if you had to not let your dog near its bed for 6 weeks? Poor method I'm sorry.

It's not new thinking with the one year thing...Research, then you can give advise. Giving bad advise as if it's good advise creates horrible advise.

Now there are many methods to deal with ich. All of them attach the parasite at a specific time in it's life. One simply separates the fish from the parasite at the optimum moment and interrupts the lifespan. Finding that particular moment is difficult at best. Hyposalinity kills the parasite when looking for a host during the free swimming stage. Copper kills it at this time also. The transfer method separates the fish from the parasite at the time it leaves the fish. Vacuuming and cleaning surfaces daily or twice daily is another method with very limited results. It can though limit the impact of a bad outbreak. Increasing the fishes slime coat causes the parasite to not be able to attach very well. This is the process basically involved with the increased immune system. Many of the snake oils essentially do this by irritating the fish, thus stimulating the slime coat.
I forget the who's and the whats regarding 11 months with no new DNA, But there was a study done on ick years ago where they used tank raised fish and one strand of ick. After 11 months the "culture" of ick became no longer viable. The researches could not keep a culture live beyond this time frame. Thus the conclusion was drawn that the parasite needs some variance in DNA over the 11 mo. or it will perish. Adding any new fish DNA to the tank would reset this. Allowing for another 11 mo. of viable culture. one could draw the conclusion that if you can go for 11 months or preferably 1 year without adding any new fish, ANY. Then you will likely have cured the tank of it. The question is, can you do that?
Now this is not a proven science so much as who could actually prove it works in the aquarists tank. But those are the results the repetitively found. I would not recommend this as a "treatment" it is not. My dogs wont lie next to the snake den for 12 mo.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
I just want to stress that Hypo, copper, fallow and if done correctly and diligently, transfer, are the only effective means of ridding the parasite from the fish. I would only rely on the one year things as a back up insurance thing. Like if you had ick treated it and then went for one year without a new addition. You could be sure that the tank was ich free. But I bet, not many people can go a full year without adding a new fish. Many will be in denial, but 12 months is a long time in this hobby.
 

spanko

Active Member
I would like to see that study if you can find it Doc. Most everything I have read says a fallow system for 4 to 8 weeks.
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Did I not mention 6 weeks in my analogy of the dog and the snake?

You don't understand. I'm not talking about going fallow.

I'll see if I can find it when I get a chance.
Actually just interrupting the life cycle one time will be sufficient when going fallow. It cant live if it doesn't find a host. MOST suggest going at least 4 weeks. This would generally guarantee that at least one life cycle has occurred.
 

spanko

Active Member
I'm tryin here Doc honest I am.
So went back a reread your posts. Are you saying the you can have ich in the tank and that if you do not any new fish DNA to the tank for one year the Ich will die off? This is even true if you leave the existing fish in that tank and they do not die from the infestation for the 12 months?
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
Sorry spank, I'm a little groggy still here.
Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. If you can go 11 months without adding any new fish flesh to the system then according to (what is I believe the only properly conducted scientific study) the parasite will cease to exist. It needs new DNA I believe it was to continue to reproduce past that time frame. Several times their culture no longer became viable after 11 months of the same fish DNA. Add a little goby though and you'll reset this. Again this is not proven, but it is believed and accepted to be the case.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Hyposalinity kills the parasite when looking for a host during the free swimming stage.
This is not how Hypo brakes the life cycle of ick
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Hyposalinity kills the parasite when looking for a host during the free swimming stage.
This is not how Hypo brakes the life cycle of ick
And I don’t understated how a parasite in its parasitic stage utilizes DNA as nourishment and if it did would it not have to reproduce clones to require different DNA after one year. I do remember a study that stated a (white spot) parasite (not ick) having a life span of one year
 

wattsupdoc

Active Member
I stand corrected, the parasite is killed during the reproductive stage.
Theront I believe it is.
I'll find the article I just don't have the time right now. I just now sat down for some supper...I believe the study was done in like '99 or something. It's been a while. And it was cryptocaryon irritans. It may not be DNA, butt 11 months of the same strand with the same fish....
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Well as you have your supper I will tell you how hypo kills the ick parasite in its Encystment Reproductive stage and not in its free swimming Trophont or Theronts stage. The ick parasite utilizes osmotic pressure differential to divide, passing water from with in out and vise versa. By lowering your salinity you no longer have a differential between the out side water and the fluid with in the encystment stage thus no transfer of fluid. There can be no division the parasite for want of a better phrase drowns in its own fluid. Have a nice supper
Oh and hypo is actually called osmotic pressure differential
Sorry if I seem a little harsh but I posted this before I realized you deleted your comments to me
 
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