fuge/sump design

[snailheave]

i am designing a fuge/sump combo that mimics the ecosystem filter sump design (the one with the basic three sections: sump, refugium, chamber.) their asking price is ridiculous so i think i'll do this myself.
the dimensions are 36x12x18. i have several points that i don't really understand so here they go:
1) what's the recommended flow rate for a setup of this size? can i run 1000gph through this thing without creating a hurricanes?
2) how big should each chamber be and why? in other words, where should i put the baffles? obviously for the pump chamber it has to be at least big enough to fit the pump, other than that is there a reason to go much bigger than the pump size? and for the sump section i am guessing that i need enough space to handle the buddles create by the large volume of water going through?
i think i more of less answer the second question myself. so the question now is what do you recommend?

 

[squidd]

In answering the second question your self...you pretty much came up with the formula for sizing and the answer to the first question as well...
Basicly, you need enough room for the return pump, (but that's a "minimum" now)..Enough room for the skimmer and overflow chamber..enough room for baffles spaced wide enough to control flow and whats left is Fuge...
Then you realize the Fuge space is too small to be effective for all the work your putting into this so you go out and get a bigger tank...
Now you refigure Skimmer/overflow chamber area and decent baffling one one side and effective fuge on the other...what's left is your return chamber (in the middle) ...
Do the math to check volume of return pump chamber (in gallons/actual) and figure you'll need around 10-15 gallons (actual) to handle 1000gph flow
So you go out and get a bigger tank and do it all again... )

 

[squidd]

Originally Posted by snailheave
1) what's the recommended flow rate for a setup of this size?
Sorry, just "re-read" the question...
500gph flow, Tiny skimmer ..good for "up to/maybe" a 46 gallon Main tank...

 

[ninjaboy]

I just happened to set up a new 150g tank and bought a ecosystem. If you want, I guess I can fax you the manual, that has the diagram and a lot more info. that you might want to know. Now, regarding the flow rate, it recommond 1200-1500. if you run a 1000, after all the plumbing, you will probrobly net 400-500gph. I used a mag drive 1200, connected to a big UV, then the chiller, then the mechanical wave maker. I think it would be OK if I didn't connect it to the wave maker. I am now buying a 1800 to replace the 1200.
good luck

 

[lionfish99]

do you put your filter (hang on penguin bio-wheel) in the sump?

 

[snailheave]

is that question for me?
i am picking between 'mag 12' and 'quiet one 5000.' has anyone here had any experience with quiet one pumps?
squidd, my return pump chamber is going to be on the side, ninjaboy probably knows the design since he owns one.
main tank is 75g by the way. according to ecosystem they recommend for the 36x12x18, as ninja mentioned above, 1000-1200gph. since i am custom-build this thing i probably can go a little taller, say around 21 or 24.
i wonder if it can actually handle that much flow? your opinion, ninja? since you own one. i would love to have a copy of the manual but i don't have a fax. i can however draw something similar and you can fill in the numbers for me.

 

[squidd]

Now, regarding the flow rate, it recommond 1200-1500. if you run a 1000, after all the plumbing, you will probrobly net 400-500gph.
Sounds about right for flow...
500gph flow, Tiny skimmer ..good for "up to/maybe" a 46 gallon Main tank...
I "down-sized" the rating, because I think the 10-15 gallons you get for a fuge will be a bit undersized for a 75...

 

[snailheave]

ok! this is my first time doing this so if there are parts that just don't make sense you know why

 

[snailheave]

i also found this design from somewhere i don't remember. which is the design you brought up earlier with the return chamber in the middle.
what's the advantage of this or it's just a different design?

 

[squidd]

In the first drawing you have a "flow through" design...ALL water from overflow must go through fuge to get to return pump...(might be a bit "fast" for effective malnutrient removal)
In the second drawing, a "Pump in center" design...water is fed to skimmer and fuge seperatly and you can control flow rates to each for effective processing...

 

[bigb]

Originally Posted by snailheave
ok! this is my first time doing this so if there are parts that just don't make sense you know why

I have the 36x12x18 and your drawing is almost right on. Except first chamber is 6" wide With 14" tall, two 1" tall cut outs 6.5" up from the bottom for water flow between ch1 and 2. Bio balls stay in this chamber(1), no need for the second wall from the top. second chanmber(2) looks good. And Wall between 2 and 3 (where you have your second bio balls) is 11" tall. Wall coming from top in between 3 and 4 stops 1" from bottom.

 

[ninjaboy]

The 36*12*18 is going to be pro 3612. it requires a flow rate of 1000-1200gph, now. If if is from ecosystem. It will come with a ASM G1X skimmer in chamber #1. Mine came with a G3. And it works wonderfully. I can go make a copy and get it to you when I go to my office tomorrow. The diagram you have is a bit different from what their set up is. I think their set up is pretty cool if you can copy it. and I think 18 inch high is enough for your 75 gallon.

 

[snailheave]

squidd:
i can see the benefit of the pump-in-center design.
bigb:
you count the chambers from left to right, correct? i'll need to read your description a few more time to understand the design.
ninja:
i appreciate it if you can do that. i am going to bring the design to a custom-builder and see how much cheaper they can do it for.

 

[snailheave]

using this diagram you attached in another thread, if the lift from pump to bulkheads is 4ft, what's the heads count in this exact design? <i do not know how to calculate heads when it's split two ways like that, which is exactly what i plan to do with my tank>
if part of the tubing is vinyl tubing, such as the portion between the pump and the tee where i expect an extra elbow, will it reduce the heads count?

 

[squidd]

To get an "accurate" return number, you can't just figure "head"...
Need to know pump type, and line size as well...
Rigid or flex PVC (spa Flex) run the same...the limiting factor is the smallest "opening" your pushing water through...IE: hose barb (smaller than line ID) or ball valve...

 

[ninjaboy]

Snail:
that's interesting that you want to have the sump in the middle, can you tell me what the benifit you see? As for the bulkhead, I think the bigger the better, unless you plan on having two different one coming from the tank.
Regarding cost, I spoke to the LFS which they custom make filters. They told me that I won't save much $ from putting one together seperately. I paid $950 total for mine, tax included.which includes, miracle mud 30lbs, 2 18 watt power compact, ASM G3 skimmer and bio balls. If you buy all those seperately, I don't think you can save much after you finish. Now I know my unit they are selling it for 1100 or so, but several LSF can get it for me for about $950 or so.
By the way, can anyone tell me what is the most idea water quality? ex. temp, ph, salinity and.....
Another question is my whole house is running off a water softener which uses potassium instead of salt. Can I use that water to mix my own salt water? will the water be too soft?
Does anyone know?
Thanks

 

[ninjaboy]

Snail:
If you pump water directly into the refugium. then I water flow will be too strong for it. I think that's why they have the mud in chamber #2 so water does flow from chamber 1 into 2. instead of pouring right into the mud.

 

[bigb]

bigb:
you count the chambers from left to right, correct? i'll need to read your description a few more time to understand the design.
QUOTE]
Yes, chamber 1, water enters and contains most bio balls. With the 14" high wall water doesn't flow over it, but through the 2 cut outs placed about 6.5" from the bottom. Cut outs- I believe they are 1" tallx3"wide, cenetred gives you 1" spaces from both sides and in the middle. Chamber 2 (the large one is where you'll grow the macro algae. Wall between 2 and 3 is 11", water flows over this one into Chamber 3 -the skinny one holding the other bioballs that catch any large macro before water enters chamber 4- the one with the pump.
don't know if this pic is allowed, the red arrows show water flow

 

[snailheave]

sorry i forgot to list the tubing size. it's 1" the barbs should be at least 3/4". which brings up a new question, how do you seal the connections between pvc tubes and a barb/host fitting? pvc cement?
i want to know the heads before i decide what's a good pump. i don't have a set rate in mind yet, anywhere between 10 and 20 tickles my fancy :joy:

 

[snailheave]

Originally Posted by ninjaboy
Snail:
If you pump water directly into the refugium. then I water flow will be too strong for it. I think that's why they have the mud in chamber #2 so water does flow from chamber 1 into 2. instead of pouring right into the mud.
The advantage I see (that makes sense to me) is that with a slower moving flow (squidd's drawing has a valve regulating the drain) your macro algeas have more time to absorb the nutrition.
i am going with the flow-through design though. it's something that i can understand and explain to the builder best. how much is the 36x12x18 unit sold for, stand alone and with all the kits?