Further evidence of a relation to chimp

reef_dart21

Member
When Fire Approaches, Chimps Keep Their Cool
By Jon Cohen
ScienceNOW Daily News
22 December 2009
When primatologist Jill Pruetz found herself threatened by wildfires in the savannas of Fongoli, Senegal, in 2006 she had two options: stay with the chimpanzees she was studying, or run. She chose the chimps. The primates were calm, and--with her in tow--they carefully made their way around the blaze. "I was very surprised at how good they were at judging the threat and predicting the behavior of fire," says Pruetz. The chimps' actions, she would later report, set them apart from other nonhuman animals--and they may reveal the evolutionary origins of how we came to master fire.
According to Pruetz, who works at Iowa State University in Des Moines and has studied the Fongoli chimps since 2001, there are three steps to mastering fire: conceptualizing it, starting it, and containing it. Most animals fail the first step, reacting by instinct. West African reed frogs flee at the sound of fire, brush-tailed bettongs in Australia become dazed and confused, and stress hormones jump in African elephants.
Chimps, on the other hand, take a more nuanced approach. Pruetz witnessed the primates calmly moving around wildfires on two occasions. Other times, the chimps rested and groomed while smoke began to obscure the sun. They seem to realize, says Pruetz, that fire has a behavior--just like another forest animal--and that its movements can be predicted.
Pruetz and paleontologist Thomas LaDuke of East Stroudsburg University in Pennsylvania reported their analysis of these observations online 21 December in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology. They do not contend that chimps will one day start and contain fires, though captive apes can start fires with a cigarette lighter (see video, start at 6:05). But the chimps' behavior may reveal a primitive hominid trait.
A key to their argument is that the chimpanzees, like humans, can control their fear of fire. Sociologist Joop Goudsblom, an emeritus professor at the University of Amsterdam who has published extensively on the evolution of human mastery of fire, says this description of the Fongoli chimps comes close to how he imagines early hominins behaved. "To manipulate fire and use it for your purposes you have to step back from it, not run away," says Goudsblom, who speculates that early humans also saw fire as something alive. "It sounds a bit odd, but it makes sense if you go back a million years. Somehow, we managed to find the proper combination of curiosity and foresight--which is what's needed if you want regular association with fire."
Pruetz and LaDuke suspect that other primates and "cognitively sophisticated" species might similarly conceptualize fire. But Pruetz says next to nothing has been published on the subject. "I was really surprised at how little information there was available," she says. Perhaps her findings will spark more interest in the topic
source:
http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi...ll/2009/1222/2
 

mastertech

Member
".....that fire has a behavior--just like another forest animal--and that its movements can be predicted"
everything has predicitable behavior thats called science.
you know my fish can predict behavior that does not mean that great great great great great great grandpappy was a goby.
"...But the chimps' behavior may reveal a primitive hominid trait"
and again my fish can learn from its observances. the large firefish has learned not to mess with great grandpappys.... i mean gobys home or he will get some fin damage.
i dont think this author has convinced me of evolution.
 

flower

Well-Known Member

Let’s look closely at how G-d created …First he created the critters in the water..Then birds…then the creeping things, then the animals, then the humans.
Which sounds very similar to evolution to me. Scientists say first all creatures evolved from the ocean, then fish like creatures, creeping critters evolved from ocean critters…then they notice the bird critters and mammals…monkey critters then humans.
The sun and moon were not created until the 4th day. Therefore it is simple to say G-ds time is not our time frame. It is entirely possible that the Creator made his creatures in stages, with one creature evolving from the one before it. The way of nature, is constantly being discovered by humans…Nature is the way of G-d.
I am not for, or against evolution. I am just saying that if there is evolution, G-d orchestrated it.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by mastertech
http:///forum/post/3197629
".....that fire has a behavior--just like another forest animal--and that its movements can be predicted"
everything has predicitable behavior thats called science.
you know my fish can predict behavior that does not mean that great great great great great great grandpappy was a goby.
"...But the chimps' behavior may reveal a primitive hominid trait"
and again my fish can learn from its observances. the large firefish has learned not to mess with great grandpappys.... i mean gobys home or he will get some fin damage.
i dont think this author has convinced me of evolution.
The author's data should not convince you of evolution. The wide acceptance of evolutionary theory among modern biologists doesn't rest on any single piece of evidence, but on thousands (millions?, countless?) pieces of data, all of which are consistent with the theory of evolution as originally set down by Darwin, and modified and added to by many individuals in the succeeding 150 years.
 

mastertech

Member
i am not going to debate evolution in this media. im sorry i engaged it in the fist place.
this is a Saltwater Aquarium forum and i understand the purpose of "the Aquarium" section of this forum but really, do you think that you can have a cool calm descussion about religion/politics/evolution/abortion or any other widely debated subject without decent into argument that is anything but destructive.
i just stated that this author has a couple observances recorded and is attempting to apply it to his ajenda. these obervances can easily be reduce to rubble with simple observations in my fish tank.
i also beleive that Reef Dart 21 is attempting to create another drama post in hopes that he will be able to engage in. i have seen his remarks before and they seem to be geared towards a truculent behavoir. as a matter of fact he searches for "locked" post and laughs about it.
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3193560
How many threads in this forum do you think have been locked? i was browsing through and counted 13 in the first fews pages
just wondering
agian i am done here.
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
mastertech: I'm sorry you feel that way. You did open the discussion, and I thought your comments were worth responding to - that's what civilized people do in a discussion.
You said "you know my fish can predict behavior that does not mean that great great great great great great grandpappy was a goby", and you are right. Predicting behavior was not the point of the observation the scientists made, but the ability to predict and avoid in a planned manner, something that most animals cannot do. And, btw, your great great (however many greats you need) grandfather and and a goby's great great, and so on, grandfather were one and the same creature - just a very long time ago.
 

srfisher17

Active Member
.......all this is just another reason why I love the concept of Intelligent Design. I can stay with my Faith and respect science as well.
 

mastertech

Member
ok GeriDoc since your sorry that im not going to engage in the conversation i will but only in hopes that you and i will not decent into something less than civilzed and also to glorify God in all my thoughts and actions.
please excuse my further questions and comments because they will be simplistic in nature and design.
were you there in the creation of the earth?
if not how do you know my great(x) grandfather was not created by the spoken Word of God?
 

coral keeper

Active Member
Originally Posted by mastertech
http:///forum/post/3197629
".....that fire has a behavior--just like another forest animal--and that its movements can be predicted"
everything has predicitable behavior thats called science.
you know my fish can predict behavior that does not mean that great great great great great great grandpappy was a goby.
"...But the chimps' behavior may reveal a primitive hominid trait"
and again my fish can learn from its observances. the large firefish has learned not to mess with great grandpappys.... i mean gobys home or he will get some fin damage.
i dont think this author has convinced me of evolution.
My fish swim up to me every time I go near the tank. lol
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/3197715
The author's data should not convince you of evolution. The wide acceptance of evolutionary theory among modern biologists doesn't rest on any single piece of evidence, but on thousands (millions?, countless?) pieces of data, all of which are consistent with the theory of evolution as originally set down by Darwin, and modified and added to by many individuals in the succeeding 150 years.
This specific article did not convince me of evolution, I just found it interesting how their is further evidence supporting the idea of a relation to chimpanzees.
As the article explains, this COULD be how we first reacted to fire and started to utilize the flames for tools.
Just an interesting piece that sheds a little more light of our evolution.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by mastertech
http:///forum/post/3197761
ok GeriDoc since your sorry that im not going to engage in the conversation i will but only in hopes that you and i will not decent into something less than civilzed and also to glorify God in all my thoughts and actions.
please excuse my further questions and comments because they will be simplistic in nature and design.
where you there in the creation of the earth?
if not how do you know my great(x) grandfather was not created by the spoken Word of God?
No one is trying to turn your faith, like many other modern christians they have accepted evolution but not a product of chemicals/etc, rather the product of God.
I am not trying to ignite a discussion on God or no god, I was trying to recieve comments on how the study will help discover our begginings.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Coral Keeper
http:///forum/post/3197766
My fish swim up to me every time I go near the tank. lol
Ok thats a behavior, but do your fish have a planned behavior? Such as they analyze the task/situation then perform a specific action accordingly?
 

mastertech

Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3197802
No one is trying to turn your faith, like many other modern christians they have accepted evolution but not a product of chemicals/etc, rather the product of God.
I am not trying to ignite a discussion on God or no god, I was trying to recieve comments on how the study will help discover our begginings.
I jumped the gun. please excuse me if i misread the intensions of this post.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3197798
This specific article did not convince me of evolution, I just found it interesting how their is further evidence supporting the idea of a relation to chimpanzees.
As the article explains, this COULD be how we first reacted to fire and started to utilize the flames for tools.
Just an interesting piece that sheds a little more light of our evolution.

I think it shows how very smart animals really are. We assume because they are animals we are superior. The more scientists study the world around us, the more we realize how very smart our fellow Earthlings are.
I was watching (I think it was animal planet) a show where some killer whales were teaching the baby whale how to hunt a seal. They trapped it on a lone ice chunk and made huge waves to wash the seal into the ocean for them to eat. The adults did it first but didn’t eat the seal, they let the seal get back up to safety and let baby try. When baby whale did it he got to eat his prize.
Animals think and plan. They have a social life. They have a language they understand among themselves. They rear up their young (sometimes better than us) to be able to survive as adults. I think whenever we get a glimpse of it..It’s pretty cool.
Proof of evolution.
I don’t know about that, but what a fantastic thing to witness.
 

reef_dart21

Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3197882

I think it shows how very smart animals really are. We assume because they are animals we are superior. The more scientists study the world around us, the more we realize how very smart our fellow Earthlings are.
I was watching (I think it was animal planet) a show where some killer whales were teaching the baby whale how to hunt a seal. They trapped it on a lone ice chunk and made huge waves to wash the seal into the ocean for them to eat. The adults did it first but didn’t eat the seal, they let the seal get back up to safety and let baby try. When baby whale did it he got to eat his prize.
Animals think and plan. They have a social life. They have a language they understand among themselves. They rear up their young (sometimes better than us) to be able to survive as adults. I think whenever we get a glimpse of it..It’s pretty cool.
Proof of evolution.
I don’t know about that, but what a fantastic thing to witness.
Your example of the wahles show bred behavior, which means behavior taught at birth or infancy for survival.
But what I find interesting is the chimpanzees never have learned how to deal with fire, rather they evaluted the threat (fire) and acted accordingly which is an amazing demonstration of their intelligence.
Another example is an octopus that lived off a coast of an island where many coconuts fell in the ocean. The octopus analyzed the coconuts, perhaps for hours, days, months no one is sure, the utilized the shell as a means of shelter. First ever evidence of an INVERTEBRATE utlizing a tool, raising the question could octopus be next in line to evolve into a sealike hominod (by this i mean intelligence not apperence)
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Reef_Dart21
http:///forum/post/3197894
Your example of the wahles show bred behavior, which means behavior taught at birth or infancy for survival. That would mean everything I TAUGHT my children is the same thing. Wouldn't bred behavior mean they were born with the knowledge, like dogs who naturally herd because they were bred to do that.
But what I find interesting is the chimpanzees never have learned how to deal with fire, rather they evaluted the threat (fire) and acted accordingly which is an amazing demonstration of their intelligence.
Another example is an octopus that lived off a coast of an island where many coconuts fell in the ocean. The octopus analyzed the coconuts, perhaps for hours, days, months no one is sure, the utilized the shell as a means of shelter. First ever evidence of an INVERTEBRATE utlizing a tool, raising the question could octopus be next in line to evolve into a sealike hominod (by this i mean intelligence not apperence)

It is not IMO, proof of evolution. I think proof of evolution would be to find a cobra growing legs, or an alligator starting to walk on two legs. Maybe an ape losing all its hair and then putting on cloths to stay warm, or starting a fire. Then I would believe a monkey is developing into a human.
Evolution needs proof of a physical change up the scale of development.
The chimp and octopus stories show that animals think in greater terms than we expected. They are smarter than we give them credit. Proof that zoo’s housing apes are cruel perhaps.
 

kingsmith

Member
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3197909

It is not IMO, proof of evolution. I think proof of evolution would be to find a cobra growing legs, or an alligator starting to walk on two legs. Maybe an ape losing all its hair and then putting on cloths to stay warm, or starting a fire. Then I would believe a monkey is developing into a human.
Evolution needs proof of a physical change up the scale of development.
The chimp and octopus stories show that animals think in greater terms than we expected. They are smarter than we give them credit. Proof that zoo’s housing apes are cruel perhaps.
You can't see proof of this in anything but fossils because eveolution is slow, not every mutation is eveolution but the continuation of the mutation because it provides a survial benefit to the species, and there are current snake species that have proof of bones which were once most likely legs
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by KingSmith
http:///forum/post/3197912
You can't see proof of this in anything but fossils because eveolution is slow, not every mutation is eveolution but the continuation of the mutation because it provides a survial benefit to the species, and there are current snake species that have proof of bones which were once most likely legs

If growing legs is proof of development, according to Darwin, how can once having legs show proof of development? I think snakes once had legs because scripture tells us that the serpent beguiled Eve and was put on his belly by G-d. So now all the descendants of snakes slither.
 
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