Future plans, suggestions welcome

[superman]

Hello all,
I'm in the process of planning out a new tank. My wife and I plan to move within the year to a permanent residence. The old "dream home" theory. Naturally there must be a giant fish tank. This is huge for me because this will be the first tank i get to make with my son (7 mos). My vision is a basement tank in wall with a decent sized utility closet/ work area on the other side. This will be great to access everything from the back. I'm gonna design and build the whole shebang. For tank size, I'm going to be in the 200+ range depending on the area. I plan for computerized monitoring of water temps and conditions, a big refugium, and the Johns Hopkins of quarantine/hospital tanks. I hope to have a dedicated utility sink with R/O unit attached.
The idea of the tank will be simple, but hopefully colorful. The plan is to do a complete zoanthid reef with LR (obviously). Im going to do a semi-wall scape, with large caves and zoanthid covered overhangs. It will incorporate a modest and responsible stock list as seen below.
Perc/osc clown pair - cliche, but classic, I love them. I have a pair now with a 2-year old BTA so those will probably be the residents.
Bicolor angel - I'm aware of the possibility of nipping at corals, but with we'll fed fish and giant coral colonies I'm not worried.
Coral Beaty - too much color not to.
Purple tang - my favorite of all
Yellow tang - this will depend on size of both it and the purple, and how close together they are introduced.
A few rock dwellers (royal gramma or two and maybe a blackcap basslet) - I think they'll complement the colors on the rocks, and there will be an abundance of hiding.
Sixline wrasse x 2 - fun to watch, good color, utility players.
Some sort of schooler - I'm not a big chromis fan. I've considered maybe anthias, but I'm open to some suggestions here.
And a big maybe...the Achilles tang - this choice has one main factor, tank size. There's also the fact that they can be ick prone, but with a healthy specimen and the ability to "hospitalize", this isn't a major concern.
I may look at some other small specimens if they have great color - definitely open to suggestions ( no damsels and no mandarins) I would love a mandarin and with a huge refugium it may work, but I'd rather not chance it.
Next brings me to the biggie...can you guess? Yep that's right...lights. I know what I want, I just want to get some suggestions. I'm between T5 and LED. I would love to do LEDs. I've already designed some excellent layouts and have all the means to implement them. However, I want whatever will make the tank POP in color. The common opinion on this seems to lean towards T5, but I also haven't found much info on the LEDs for zoanthid viewing. And I am planning on some amazing zoos. I would list them, but one kind could have 10 different common names, so we'll just call them all awesome. If anyone has had success with LED lighting and coloring I would really appreciate the LED colors and patterns you used. If there's something better than T5 or LED I'd consider it, but I'm pretty set on these. The LEDs also give me some options on sun up to sun down lighting.
Filters I'm still up in the air on because I may just design my own. I also have not researched skimmers yet.
One final big thing I'd love some advice on is algae on the glass or acrylic. I want to do acrylic, but in the bast I've had hard green or pink coralline grow on the glass. I just razor blade it on glass, but acrylic cant handle that. How would I clean the acrylic, kill the algae or fend it off to begin with?
There's plenty more to tell, and I'm sure ill get to it all, but at the moment I'd love some lighting and fish feedback. As I mentioned I have some time yet to plan.
I have asked similar lighting questions in the past, but I'm sure more advancement and observation has since occurred. Thank you all in advance for your ideas. Also, I'm typing this on a tablet so excuse any oddly "corrected" spellings.
Enjoy,
-Alex

 

[flower]

Hello Superman!
LOL...I always wanted to say that. Welcome to the site. Looks like you have your dream tank thought out to the last detail. When you are ready to begin, I'm sure folks here will direct you to the best brands and where to go to get it....
I recommend this book, it will help the dream to visulize what fish you might want

a page to see what info it offers

 

[superman]

Hey flower, thanks so much. I've actually been a member here about eleven years and have always enjoyed the members and experiences. The book you mentioned is one of my favorites. But you may have struck gold for me. I forgot about the schooling habits of the flasher wrasse, and that's just the type of coloring the tank will benefit from. I'll do a bit more research on those!

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510026
Hello Superman!
LOL...I always wanted to say that. Welcome to the site. Looks like you have your dream tank thought out to the last detail. When you are ready to begin, I'm sure folks here will direct you to the best brands and where to go to get it....
I recommend this book, it will help the dream to visualize what fish you might want

a page to see what info it offers

Thanks Flower that actually gave me some ideas.....Was thinking of something "schooling" myself.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510024
Hello all,
I'm in the process of planning out a new tank. My wife and I plan to move within the year to a permanent residence. The old "dream home" theory. Naturally there must be a giant fish tank. This is huge for me because this will be the first tank i get to make with my son (7 mos). My vision is a basement tank in wall with a decent sized utility closet/ work area on the other side. This will be great to access everything from the back. I'm gonna design and build the whole shebang. For tank size, I'm going to be in the 200+ range depending on the area. I plan for computerized monitoring of water temps and conditions, a big refugium, and the Johns Hopkins of quarantine/hospital tanks. I hope to have a dedicated utility sink with R/O unit attached. First congrats on the little 1......Your name does sound familiar from years ago on here.....Anyways in your planning for the in wall I know you commented on accessing everything from the back, but keep in mind you'll also want access to the tank from the front.....It will come in handy or play at some point.....As far as utility sink and RO, since your in the planning stages, hopefully the basement won't be finished or completely finished, but it's super easy to move the water lines and such to where you need them.....I did it in my in wall build it makes life easy.
The idea of the tank will be simple, but hopefully colorful. The plan is to do a complete zoanthid reef with LR (obviously). Im going to do a semi-wall scape, with large caves and zoanthid covered overhangs. It will incorporate a modest and responsible stock list as seen below. This sounds super cool my friend......Very cool!!!!!!
r />
Perc/osc clown pair - cliche, but classic, I love them. I have a pair now with a 2-year old BTA so those will probably be the residents.
Bicolor angel - I'm aware of the possibility of nipping at corals, but with we'll fed fish and giant coral colonies I'm not worried.
Coral Beaty - too much color not to.
Purple tang - my favorite of all
Yellow tang - this will depend on size of both it and the purple, and how close together they are introduced.
A few rock dwellers (royal gramma or two and maybe a blackcap basslet) - I think they'll complement the colors on the rocks, and there will be an abundance of hiding.
Sixline wrasse x 2 - fun to watch, good color, utility players.
Some sort of schooler - I'm not a big chromis fan. I've considered maybe anthias, but I'm open to some suggestions here.
And a big maybe...the Achilles tang - this choice has one main factor, tank size. There's also the fact that they can be ick prone, but with a healthy specimen and the ability to "hospitalize", this isn't a major concern.
I may look at some other small specimens if they have great color - definitely open to suggestions ( no damsels and no mandarins) I would love a mandarin and with a huge refugium it may work, but I'd rather not chance it.
I'm a big tang fan myself......Just hold out for the Achilles and then quarantine......I've had decent success in the past and will be adding another to my setup down the road.
Next brings me to the biggie...can you guess? Yep that's right...lights. I know what I want, I just want to get some suggestions. I'm between T5 and LED. I would love to do LEDs. I've already designed some excellent layouts and have all the means to implement them. However, I want whatever will make the tank POP in color. The common opinion on this seems to lean towards T5, but I also haven't found much info on the LEDs for zoanthid viewing. And I am planning on some amazing zoos. I would list them, but one kind could have 10 different common names, so we'll just call them all awesome. If anyone has had success with LED lighting and coloring I would really appreciate the LED colors and patterns you used. If there's something better than T5 or LED I'd consider it, but I'm pretty set on these. The LEDs also give me some options on sun up to sun down lighting. If you want pop both LEDs and T5's could do that....Not sure where your got the "opinion" that most lean towards T5's.....The problem most have that aren't getting the "pop" as we want to call it is their LED ratios......With the advent of reds, green, uv's and such there is the "pop" your seeking.....The deal is you have to know which colors will give you that pop, and on a consensus, the uv would be the "pop" depending which color your trying to enhance.....This has been noted in a big thread on another forum that certain colors will wash the uv out, and therefor your color ratios would have to be toyed with to get the pop......With that said it's evident and obvious that LEDs are more than capable of giving you want you want if you look at the advent of Eco, AI, Maxspect, Apollo, and a slew of others.....It all comes down to your combination of emitters......
Filters I'm still up in the air on because I may just design my own. I also have not researched skimmers yet. Sometimes it's easier and best to use the old and tried sump......Why try to reinvent the wheel when it works......A good site for layouts would be melevsreef.....IMO the best at explaining and showing them built......Skimmers on the other hand to many factors there to say which would suit your needs....The biggest is are you wanting external or in sump......The best advice is decide on a skimmer......Stick with it and then build your filtration around the skimmer.....
One final big thing I'd love some advice on is algae on the glass or acrylic. I want to do acrylic, but in the bast I've had hard green or pink coralline grow on the glass. I just razor blade it on glass, but acrylic cant handle that. How would I clean the acrylic, kill the algae or fend it off to begin with? I'm an acrylic fan......Dealing with coralline on glass is handled the same way as acrylic, other than you need specific scrapers and cleaning magnets for acrylic.....Yes acrylic can and will scratch, but the nice thing is it can be buffed out very easily, and it can be done while the tank is up and running, so anyone stating the tank would need to be torn down is a myth.....Now if you gouge the daylights out of it, that is a possibility, but coralline isn't a deterrent from using glass over acrylic....There's huge tanks done in acrylic that have been running quite a long time with no issues with removing coralline and such.....Just get the right cleaning tools......
There's plenty more to tell, and I'm sure ill get to it all, but at the moment I'd love some lighting and fish feedback. As I mentioned I have some time yet to plan.
I have asked similar lighting questions in the past, but I'm sure more advancement and observation has since occurred. Thank you all in advance for your ideas. Also, I'm typing this on a tablet so excuse any oddly "corrected" spellings.
Enjoy,
-Alex

 

[btldreef]

With regards to lighting:
I've gotten better coloration from my DIY LEDs than any T5 arrangement. The biggest help was having dimmable LEDs. I do not have red, purple or green, just white and blue and with the right ratio, I have excellent colors and growth. If you do go LED, and you're at all handy, build them yourself. While I do believe there are some good units on the market, nothing I've seen compares to the DIY when they're done correctly.
One downfall of T5: you don't get the shimmer in the water. I missed that when I went from halide to T5. LED gives you an even better shimmer, very similar to the sun.
I have numerous "designer" zoas in my tank and the LEDs really made the colors pop, especially on:
Chucky's Bride (bride of chucky)
Solars
Bowsers
Sunny D
Fruit loops

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510062
Hey flower, thanks so much. I've actually been a member here about eleven years and have always enjoyed the members and experiences. The book you mentioned is one of my favorites. But you may have struck gold for me. I forgot about the schooling habits of the flasher wrasse, and that's just the type of coloring the tank will benefit from. I'll do a bit more research on those!
I made a strech mesh topper for my tank, the egg crate didn't work...they jump big time, and my wrasse still managed to leap to it's death BEHIND the tank, right in the middle where I couldn't reach him to save him, he took the leap when I opened a corner to feed the fish. I had to get my mother's reacher gripper thing to get him...he had no chance to survive. it was like it planned to commit sushi and just waited for the right moment.

 

[acrylic51]

I won't disagree with the shimmer of LEDs and their abilities, but the combination of blue/white regardless of correct ratios to incorrect ratios have been proven and documented this combination lacks all the spectrums needed......

 

[btldreef]

I won't disagree with the shimmer of LEDs and their abilities, but the combination of blue/white regardless of correct ratios to incorrect ratios have been proven and documented this combination lacks all the spectrums needed......
Read the data, etc.
I could read until blue in the face, but when I'm experiencing feast growth and color first hand, there's no arguing that.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510332
Read the data, etc.
I could read until blue in the face, but when I'm experiencing feast growth and color first hand, there's no arguing that.

Have read the data....Your 1 of the few, and the data and results from testing have proven that the ratio blue/white is lacking.....Hmmm why do you think the addition of the different blues, white, uv and such were added....Experience and data....You may have gotten lucky, but the data states clearly and I guess you'll repute some of Sanjay's work......
Never said you didn't see results, but results have been pretty conclusive that combination doesn't cover the whole spectrum well....With that being said growth or not how can you dispute that it doesn't cover the entire spectrum well as with the addition of other color LEDs......

 

[novahobbies]

Shawn, let me say I'm another one who has been experiencing growth with these lights. BUT......interestingly enough, only CERTAIN corals have been responding with good growth. Others seem to show no growth at all or even regression. Let me give you a breakdown of a few sample corals:
Green Poci: This one has shown the most obvious growth. Without being in front of the tank, I'm going to guesstimate at least 60% mass increase. I will try and get some before and after shots of this for you.
Birdsnest frags: I have 4 birdsnest frags. The three that are closest to the light source have shown good growth and color in the past few months, albiet not as much as the Poci. Probably 40% increase in size. The 4th (and older) birdsnest is lower down in the tank, and has shown slow growth.
Red Monti cap: This coral first suffered through a major bleaching event. Almost lost it. It has since colored up again, and there is encrusting growth onto the rock, but little growth out into the water.
Hydnophora "Horn" Coral: This is a LPS species as you know, and it has shown some good growth since I bought it. Probably 50% mass increase, and has begun encrusting from the plug onto the rock itself.
Superman Monti: This is a frag, about 1x1 inches in size, and it has not shown any major growth. Polyps and color are still good, and there is SOME growth as it encrusts the plug, but again...very small. This frag is a little higher up on the tank, but situated almost vertically.
Frogspawn/Hammer: I have a few frags of this. None are doing super well. They are all in the middle-to-lower end of the tank, under different current conditions, but they all seem a little withdrawn than one would expect of these kinds of LPS. I do wish I could identify the problem with these corals, as they're some of my favorite LPS.

 

[acrylic51]

I know there's many variables that will dictate growth and such, I'm curious what your white/blue combination is; meaning what type of whites.....You have to keep in mind that all LEDs regardless white, blue, red, whatever all don't cover the same spectrum......Your results that you shared would lend credit to what I had stated earlier, that those color combinations aren't covering the entire spectrum.....If that were the case, how comes all the manufactures are abandoning the combination to a degree......1 is because "reefers" are asking for more and some does come down to what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but work has been done and study to show that those combinations are lacking and manufacturers are taking head.

 

[novahobbies]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510388
I know there's many variables that will dictate growth and such, I'm curious what your white/blue combination is; meaning what type of whites.....You have to keep in mind that all LEDs regardless white, blue, red, whatever all don't cover the same spectrum......Your results that you shared would lend credit to what I had stated earlier, that those color combinations aren't covering the entire spectrum.....If that were the case, how comes all the manufactures are abandoning the combination to a degree......1 is because "reefers" are asking for more and some does come down to what is aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but work has been done and study to show that those combinations are lacking and manufacturers are taking head.
Well, if you recall I'm using a CCLEDF. I'll get you the specs tomorrow, as they're on my work email, but suffice it to say...they're all chinese luck-of-the-draw bin items. Now I hope you didn't misunderstand; I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was merely offering my observations with these specific lights. And from what I've observed....yes, I am seeing some decent growth on many corals, but also.....yes, I DO think that these would be better off with a few extra color spectra added to the mix. Since different coral can utilize different species of zooxanthellae, and different zooxanthellae utilize different forms of chlorophyll, it seems fairly obvious that not all coral will react the same. From what I've read, I think I'm missing out on photosynthesis and energy production in the 660nm range with red lighting. Personally I'd like to add 4 660nm red bulbs and 2 UV bulbs to my mix. (figure 2 reds and 1 uv per side.) If that seems low, I may up it to 6 reds and 4 uvs, but I feel like that may be pushing it.
In any case, my personal experience tells me that while some coral may grow well under the basic blue/white LED setup, not all will. I look forward to experimenting with some different color spectra in here.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by novahobbies http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510431
Well, if you recall I'm using a CCLEDF. I'll get you the specs tomorrow, as they're on my work email, but suffice it to say...they're all chinese luck-of-the-draw bin items. Now I hope you didn't misunderstand; I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was merely offering my observations with these specific lights. And from what I've observed....yes, I am seeing some decent growth on many corals, but also.....yes, I DO think that these would be better off with a few extra color spectra added to the mix. Since different coral can utilize different species of zooxanthellae, and different zooxanthellae utilize different forms of chlorophyll, it seems fairly obvious that not all coral will react the same. From what I've read, I think I'm missing out on photosynthesis and energy production in the 660nm range with red lighting. Personally I'd like to add 4 660nm red bulbs and 2 UV bulbs to my mix. (figure 2 reds and 1 uv per side.) If that seems low, I may up it to 6 reds and 4 uvs, but I feel like that may be pushing it.
In any case, my personal experience tells me that while some coral may grow well under the basic blue/white LED setup, not all will. I look forward to experimenting with some different color spectra in here.

Didn't take it as a disagreement at all.....You basically said what I was trying to point out......You hit the nail on the head that different corals require different wave lengths, so as I had hinted earlier that the blue/white isn't all em compassing as suggested. Now depending which whites your running you can cover the red spectrum without going heavy or heavily adding red LEDs.......With that said the UV hasn't actually been proven to technically be needed, but there is observation that the addition of UV/cyan offer unique fluoresce to certain corals or pigment.....Again I feel there's a little more to that than what meets the eye.
Most have found and noted that RB actually wash out the UV and some are adding more UV LEDs to get more pop. Just as in the earlier builds most were using a mix of B/RB, and most have found through usage that B could be all but eliminated and use more RB.....

 

[sweatervest13]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/394359/future-plans-suggestions-welcome#post_3510437

Didn't take it as a disagreement at all.....You basically said what I was trying to point out......You hit the nail on the head that different corals require different wave lengths, so as I had hinted earlier that the blue/white isn't all em compassing as suggested. Now depending which whites your running you can cover the red spectrum without going heavy or heavily adding red LEDs.......With that said the UV hasn't actually been proven to technically be needed, but there is observation that the addition of UV/cyan offer unique fluoresce to certain corals or pigment.....Again I feel there's a little more to that than what meets the eye.
Most have found and noted that RB actually wash out the UV and some are adding more UV LEDs to get more pop. Just as in the earlier builds most were using a mix of B/RB, and most have found through usage that B could be all but eliminated and use more RB.....
Great discussion guys.
I have a pair of full spectrum Chinese LED's (IT2080 Evergrow Lighting Co fixture), that have Red (4x 660 nm reds), Violet (8x 410-420 nm violet), and Green (4x 520 nm green). This is paired with about a 2.5:1 ration of Blue (48x 450nm royal blue) to white (16x 7500k cool whites + 8x 3500 k warm whites). With both channels at equal power I would say its almost a 20k look. If I have the blue channel at full power and the white channel (it has whites, blue, red, violet, green) at 0 there is an insane "pop". The whites paired with the other colors on the first channel does wash it out a bit, but you can still see a "pop" but not as crazy as just the full blues.
I have only had them over the tank for about three weeks so its too early to tell if there is "amazing" growth. I have a plan where I hope to get a series of pics each month to show growth of the corals. Right now I have the units ramping up and down in power to simulate sunrise and sunset. I only go to 45% max for each channel. I hope to increase it by 5% every two weeks until I approach full power. So, it hard to tell if the growth will be from just the new LEDs with full spectrum, or the increase of power to each channel.
Either way I hope I can shed some light on these newer full spectrum units in the months to come.

 

[btldreef]

:laughing:   Have read the data....Your 1 of the few, and the data and results from testing have proven that the ratio blue/white is lacking.....Hmmm why do you think the addition of the different blues, white, uv and such were added....Experience and data....You may have gotten lucky, but the data states clearly and I guess you'll repute some of Sanjay's work......
Never said you didn't see results, but results have been pretty conclusive that combination doesn't cover the whole spectrum well....With that being said growth or not how can you dispute that it doesn't cover the entire spectrum well as with the addition of other color LEDs......

I meant that I have read the data. All the reading in the world doesn't mean much to me when I'm seeing results otherwise. That's what I'm saying. I've sat in on Sanjay's lighting speeches, etc.
I have found that the full spectrum isn't necessary.

 

[2quills]

I wouldn't think it necissary for zoas either. I think that leds and the spectums should be balanced for what you're looking to keep.
And let us remember that not all white leds are the same. Neutrals and warm whites help fill in where cool whites are lacking.
You guys aren't still running strictly cool whites are you BTL?

 

[novahobbies]

Either way I hope I can shed some light on these newer full spectrum units in the months to come
I see what you did there. :laughing:

 

[btldreef]

I wouldn't think it necissary for zoas either. I think that leds and the spectums should be balanced for what you're looking to keep.
And let us remember that not all white leds are the same. Neutrals and warm whites help fill in where cool whites are lacking.
You guys aren't still running strictly cool whites are you BTL?
Yes, only cool whites and royal blue. We did upgrade the bulbs to XPG and XTE from Cree. And the drivers are all HLG meanwells.
My husband has made units for other people with different color combos. We test them over our main reef against our LEDs and I'm not impressed with the added colors. Then I see them on their tanks after months and growth is the same or less than I have so we've went with the "if it ain't bribe don't fix it" approach.

 

[2quills]

Hmmm... I could have sworn I read your hubby talking about swapping the cools with nuetrals back when he made those changes. Perhaps I was mistaken.
But yep, if you're happy with the results I guess thats all that matters. The targeting of covering specific areas of the spectrum has been sought after for all types of lighting not just leds.
I'll be the first to admit that when I put the red leds over my tank the color made me want to puke lol.
If I do build one for the display I think I'll shoot for some of the newer white leds that have a higher color rendering index rating of any other ligh t source including halides. Someone needs to do a damn build with these already.

 

[acrylic51]

Hmmmm and we all know the neutrals cover a little different spectrum the the cool whites......

Just curious why all the manufacturers have shifted away from that regimen of white/blue combination if that's all that was totally needed......